Help me think about HIC sprint workouts

[Josh]

Thanks spemma, that's super helpful

[Aelian]

Just a quick one for now gents:

There's some good information in this thread, but there's also a lot of misconception.

First; just because x=good for strength training doesn't translate into x=good for cardiovascular training. Give it some thought.

Second.
The sprint workouts in this book aren't sprint workouts. They're anaerobic/energy system workouts that use sprints as a tool. Or a sledgehammer, or a rowing machine, or a heavy bag and burpees. This isn't a program for sprint specific training, it's for operational athletes. Improving the systems involved in performance are more important than getting good at any one particular tool (such as a sprint or burpee).

There are numerous ways to use sprints as a tool to hit the anaerobic lactic/alactic system from different angles. Various work/rest ratios benefit different aspects of your energy systems.

For example. Maximal effort (100% intensity) per rep followed by maximal rest (like a 600m Reset) is in line with improving how much power or ATP your lactic system can generate. The key is maximal effort.

Maximal Effort + Incomplete or abbreviated rest intervals (short RIs, too short to recover fully in between reps) are used for developing lactic capacity (among other things). A typical work rest ratio used is approximately 90-120 seconds work/1-2 minutes rest. You're never completely rested, and every effort is done with 100% intensity. Intensity is required to trigger the adaptations and buffering mechanisms involved in allowing anaerobic glycolysis to to continue. In army-proof language, this type of training improves your ability to sustain anaerobic output for extended periods of time.

Of course there are also sprint workouts that require you to pace yourself, for reasons provided in the links in the threads of other posters here.

Takeaway; developing your conditioning is not the same as developing strength. It's just not that simplistic. It's blanket thinking that really makes no sense whatsoever. Maximum effort, 100% intensity is used for developing various aspects of the lactic and alactic system. I've given just a few examples...there are others, many others that use different work/rest ratios. Now don't go and think the opposite, and go max effort for everything. There are workouts where pacing yourself is necessary, SE circuits come to mind.

Rest assured, if a HIC prescribes maximum effort, then there's a reason. If it calls for maximum rest in between efforts, that too is being done for a reason. If it's an incomplete rest interval and your work intervals start going to shit, don't worry about it--- it's on purpose. Your training session is designed to trigger adaptation, it's not an event unto itself. You don't win points for looking good on your last 400m lap. It doesn't matter if your last reps/sprints suck IF 100% intensity is prescribed.

If you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole, I highly recommend reading Joel Jamieson's MMA Conditioning book. It's a little more theory intense than TB and goes much further in-depth with regards to work-rest ratios, levels of intensity, and how each variation benefits different aspects of your energy systems.

[spemma]

Thanks Aelian for the detail, that's helped to clear some things up for me.

Can you help me understand what I'm perceiving as a difference between what you're saying and the Clyde Hart document I linked?

I (think) understand sprinting is a tool, and the work:rest ratio is the important part in terms of training energy systems. Well, that in addition to the intensity of the work...

If you check out page 3, for speed endurance, it prescribes max effort and long rest, and says it trains the lactic acid energy systems.

Moving to tempo endurance, it appears to prescribe sub maximal effort and shorter rest, and it says it helps train the body to increase the production of phosphate (assuming ATP?).

So to me, it's saying Max Effort + long rest = lactic acid energy system; and submaximal effort + abbreviated rest = phosphate production. This seems to be vice versa of what you're saying, or overlapping? Or am I reading it wrong all together?

Edit to add: what about the prescription to train one submaximally? If submaximal training + short rest benefits an energy system the same as max effort + short rest, why not choose the submaximal option?

[DocOctagon]

Just a quick one for now gents:

There's some good information in this thread, but there's also a lot of misconception.

First; just because x=good for strength training doesn't translate into x=good for cardiovascular training. Give it some thought.

Second.
The sprint workouts in this book aren't sprint workouts. They're anaerobic/energy system workouts that use sprints as a tool. Or a sledgehammer, or a rowing machine, or a heavy bag and burpees. This isn't a program for sprint specific training, it's for operational athletes. Improving the systems involved in performance are more important than getting good at any one particular tool (such as a sprint or burpee).

There are numerous ways to use sprints as a tool to hit the anaerobic lactic/alactic system from different angles. Various work/rest ratios benefit different aspects of your energy systems.

For example. Maximal effort (100% intensity) per rep followed by maximal rest (like a 600m Reset) is in line with improving how much power or ATP your lactic system can generate. The key is maximal effort.

Maximal Effort + Incomplete or abbreviated rest intervals (short RIs, too short to recover fully in between reps) are used for developing lactic capacity (among other things). A typical work rest ratio used is approximately 90-120 seconds work/1-2 minutes rest. You're never completely rested, and every effort is done with 100% intensity. Intensity is required to trigger the adaptations and buffering mechanisms involved in allowing anaerobic glycolysis to to continue. In army-proof language, this type of training improves your ability to sustain anaerobic output for extended periods of time.

Of course there are also sprint workouts that require you to pace yourself, for reasons provided in the links in the threads of other posters here.

Takeaway; developing your conditioning is not the same as developing strength. It's just not that simplistic. It's blanket thinking that really makes no sense whatsoever. Maximum effort, 100% intensity is used for developing various aspects of the lactic and alactic system. I've given just a few examples...there are others, many others that use different work/rest ratios. Now don't go and think the opposite, and go max effort for everything. There are workouts where pacing yourself is necessary, SE circuits come to mind.

Rest assured, if a HIC prescribes maximum effort, then there's a reason. If it calls for maximum rest in between efforts, that too is being done for a reason. If it's an incomplete rest interval and your work intervals start going to shit, don't worry about it--- it's on purpose. Your training session is designed to trigger adaptation, it's not an event unto itself. You don't win points for looking good on your last 400m lap. It doesn't matter if your last reps/sprints suck IF 100% intensity is prescribed.

If you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole, I highly recommend reading Joel Jamieson's MMA Conditioning book. It's a little more theory intense than TB and goes much further in-depth with regards to work-rest ratios, levels of intensity, and how each variation benefits different aspects of your energy systems.

Great thread, and great post!

I'll add (or maybe clarify!) that maximum effort doesn't always equal best performance. If you're doing 4 x 400m with short RIs, your last round or two is gonna look ugly and it's likely gonna be slow. What's important is your effort is 100% of what you have left. If the training session calls for maximum effort of course.

[DocOctagon]

So to me, it's saying Max Effort + long rest = lactic acid energy system;

Yes, but what about the lactic acid energy system? This statement doesn't say what you're doing or improving about the lactic system.

Is it increasing the ability of the lactic system to generate ATP?
Or
Is it increasing your ability to tolerate high levels of lactate (increased lactic capacity)?
Or
Something else?

I think that's Aelain's point. There are multiple aspects to the aerobic/anaerobic system and just as many work-rest ratios for optimal development. We haven't even touched on the alactic system in this thread yet.

[TangoZero]

Good thread guys, but I'm not sure why there's so much confusion over this. Some sessions call for maximum effort, some don't. They have different purposes. If I remember correctly BOO and BOO2 both call for some pacing, whereas Resets (Heavy Bag and 600) call for max effort. Just a couple off the top of my head.

[SPACE_CORPS_NOW]

At least for me, the confusion is defining max effort... Is it starting at an all-out sprint and ending by barely being able to walk? Or is it going the speed that you can finish each 600 but leaving everything on the table, so to speak? I can't imagine a 400m sprinter isn't giving max effort, but they could run just a bit faster at the beginning if they weren't trying to win the race.

Max effort from the first step or max effort for 600m?

[TangoZero]

At least for me, the confusion is defining max effort... Is it starting at an all-out sprint and ending by barely being able to walk? Or is it going the speed that you can finish each 600 but leaving everything on the table, so to speak? I can't imagine a 400m sprinter isn't giving max effort, but they could run just a bit faster at the beginning if they weren't trying to win the race.

Max effort from the first step or max effort for 600m?

There's going to be some slight pacing involving anything 400m+, likely wouldn't run 400 or 600m the same speed as 100 or 50. The best advice I read on this was to run each interval like you're running a race. so I think finishing each 6 but leaving it on the table is the way to go.

I wouldn't categorize that kind of pacing as "sub-maximal" though. While I personally never run the sprint workouts sub-maximal, I DO go sub max for Buffalo Laps, BOOs, and Connaught.

[KShea]

I'm not sure the words "max effort" in any training capacity that isn't race/competition related means a true out max effort. Maybe if you're testing a 1RM on an activity. Other than that, I can't think of anything where you give all that you have to the point of being unable to continue moving forward.

Max effort is a relative term, and therefore is difficult to really pin down with a definition. I'd argue that it almost NEVER means a TRUE maximum effort on anything with more than one set. Because if you are truly going as hard as you can on that one set/rep you won't have much left in the tank to give without a very long RI.

Again, I always define max effort, in any endeavor, to mean the hardest you can go and still complete your planned training session. This takes a few factors into account... Intensity, volume, duration and recovery.

Nearly any time you run a rep, you're moving for a longer duration that it takes you to do a single rep of any lift. Unless it's extremely short burst stuff. But I do a rep of bench press a lot faster than I run a 40.

So max effort, on a run, has to be different than max effort on a lift. But similar principles can still apply in my opinion.

You can't run a 400M like it's a 200M run and expect to finish the first rep correctly. If you start off so fast that you're wiped after 200M, you're not doing 400M runs. You're doing 200M runs.

And let's all be honest with ourselves.... It's EXTREMELY hard to get the timing/pacing correctly so that you are ever giving a true 100% into a run in a training session. If I pace myself for what I think a 400M would need pace wise, I may be wiped after 375M and have to slow for the last 25M. Or maybe I finish at a consistent pace for the entire 400M but have entirely too much left in the gas tank at the end. I don't know if I've ever done a run rep where I did it so perfectly at 100% that everything completely fell into place where I was beat after te rep, but the RI came and went and I was fully ready to go for rep 2. I'm not sure how many of us actually do that.

And I wouldn't REALLY call that kind of work "pacing". I'd call it running a 400M at a training pace of 100%.

While I agree lifting and running aren't the same, I'd add this: We work with a training max in the weight room. Or at least a lot of us do. I try to give 100% effort on every rep even at lesser weights. That principle can work with runs. You give 100% for the task at hand.

Great discussion. Thank you all.

[spemma]

@DocOctagon - all good questions...i will have to research more about the energy systems so i understand them better.

@KShea - what you posted was exactly what i was thinking. pinning down max effort is tricky, and training max effort =/= competition max effort, however you define competition.