After 40 club

MxS/SE/HIC/E
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Barkadion
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Re: After 40 club

Post by Barkadion »

K.B. wrote:I agree muscle mass is important when you hit the age of your personal decline. If you're running a 3 or 4 day TB template, and your nutrition's dialed in, you should be putting on muscle mass. I use the phrase "avoiding hypertrophy" in the books with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in mind, NOT muscle mass in general. There's some debate about the sarcoplasmic vs myofibril hypertrophy these days - but I subscribe to the theory that there is a difference. I've seen it with my own training and others when it comes to running typical BB splits vs traditional low rep heavy weight strength training. Have a look at gymnasts or professional MMA fighters - there's a spectrum of muscle mass ranging from pretty big, to thin and wiry. How you set-up your TB protocols will allow you to manipulate where you want to be on that spectrum.

In my experience session volume + food intake + manipulating conditioning load trumps lowering the weight and rest interval. This is the general TB guide for putting on some beef:

1. Use a 3 or 4 day template (Op or Zulu)
2. Bump up to at least 4 work sets per exercise. This one's important.
3. Run Black Protocol (1 E every other week/maximum duration - 30 minutes). So 2 HICs every week. 1 E every other week (optional).
4. Ensure that your food intake matches your weight gain goal.
5. Choose HICs that are advantageous/complementary to your goal of maximizing muscle and power. Use GCs, sprints, things that contain dips, swings, pull-ups etc.
6. Use Creatine Monohydrate.

Here's another thing. Just because you can train like a Navy SEAL doesn't mean you should. If it doesn't align with your goals you shouldn't be doing it. If you're training for general health, muscle mass, and being a machine in your mid 40s and beyond, then you have no business running Green protocol. You have no business running Base more than once or twice a year.

Training like an operator is not the same as training to be healthy. Operators frequently have atrocious hormonal profiles (low testosterone/high cortisol/depleted mineral-vitamin levels) due to the high mileage and constant training. If you don't have to train like that why would you? If you do decide to train like them (Green protocol, extreme endurance etc.) then understand you will be paying the price in other areas like strength, hormones, bones and joints.

TB is designed to be customized for your personal situation (which can change). If you're an Operator, the tools are here. If you're a power/speed athlete, the tools are here. If you're somewhere in between, the tools are here. If you're 50+ and you decide you want to do a Go-Ruck or Spartan Beast, then simply re-arrange the pieces/templates/protocols to fit your new goal.
Awesome post. Appreciate and much obliged, sir :!:
"Man is what he reads." - Joseph Brodsky

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Barkadion
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Re: After 40 club

Post by Barkadion »

Barkadion wrote:
K.B. wrote:I agree muscle mass is important when you hit the age of your personal decline. If you're running a 3 or 4 day TB template, and your nutrition's dialed in, you should be putting on muscle mass. I use the phrase "avoiding hypertrophy" in the books with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in mind, NOT muscle mass in general. There's some debate about the sarcoplasmic vs myofibril hypertrophy these days - but I subscribe to the theory that there is a difference. I've seen it with my own training and others when it comes to running typical BB splits vs traditional low rep heavy weight strength training. Have a look at gymnasts or professional MMA fighters - there's a spectrum of muscle mass ranging from pretty big, to thin and wiry. How you set-up your TB protocols will allow you to manipulate where you want to be on that spectrum.

In my experience session volume + food intake + manipulating conditioning load trumps lowering the weight and rest interval. This is the general TB guide for putting on some beef:

1. Use a 3 or 4 day template (Op or Zulu)
2. Bump up to at least 4 work sets per exercise. This one's important.
3. Run Black Protocol (1 E every other week/maximum duration - 30 minutes). So 2 HICs every week. 1 E every other week (optional).
4. Ensure that your food intake matches your weight gain goal.
5. Choose HICs that are advantageous/complementary to your goal of maximizing muscle and power. Use GCs, sprints, things that contain dips, swings, pull-ups etc.
6. Use Creatine Monohydrate.

Here's another thing. Just because you can train like a Navy SEAL doesn't mean you should. If it doesn't align with your goals you shouldn't be doing it. If you're training for general health, muscle mass, and being a machine in your mid 40s and beyond, then you have no business running Green protocol. You have no business running Base more than once or twice a year.

Training like an operator is not the same as training to be healthy. Operators frequently have atrocious hormonal profiles (low testosterone/high cortisol/depleted mineral-vitamin levels) due to the high mileage and constant training. If you don't have to train like that why would you? If you do decide to train like them (Green protocol, extreme endurance etc.) then understand you will be paying the price in other areas like strength, hormones, bones and joints.

TB is designed to be customized for your personal situation (which can change). If you're an Operator, the tools are here. If you're a power/speed athlete, the tools are here. If you're somewhere in between, the tools are here. If you're 50+ and you decide you want to do a Go-Ruck or Spartan Beast, then simply re-arrange the pieces/templates/protocols to fit your new goal.
Awesome post. Appreciate and much obliged, sir :!:
We should make a sticky for this..
"Man is what he reads." - Joseph Brodsky

Train_Hard_Live_Easy
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Re: After 40 club

Post by Train_Hard_Live_Easy »

Could be the subject for a new tome.....

Tactical Barbell for old farts ??

Whadya think? Got traction? :lol:
Have a great one

Steve
Train Hard, Live Easy.
"What was hard to do, is sweet to remember" Seneca.

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Barkadion
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Re: After 40 club

Post by Barkadion »

Train_Hard_Live_Easy wrote:Could be the subject for a new tome.....

Tactical Barbell for old farts ??

Whadya think? Got traction? :lol:
More like FartTical Barbell :lol:
"Man is what he reads." - Joseph Brodsky

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K.B.
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Re: After 40 club

Post by K.B. »

Train_Hard_Live_Easy wrote:Could be the subject for a new tome.....

Tactical Barbell for old farts ??

Whadya think? Got traction? :lol:
I think it applies regardless of age, it's more about keeping the goal the goal as Dan John (?) says. And if your goal starts leaning more toward longevity and general health vs performance for a specific role because of age or any other factor, then so be it.

That being said, one of the toughest guys I know (everyone has that toughest-guy-they-know) is in his mid 50s. A little ex-military Persian Muay Thai instructor that can pick apart, outlast and destroy the fittest and/or youngest in the class. Took him out for an 8k weighted run (kettlebell run with stops to do swings/snatches) and it didn't phase him very much. Another is an ex-SAS guy pushing 60, still rucks like he's 20 and does sledgehammer/tire work like a machine for HIC. So I don't know about old farts...but maybe tough cunning old bastards is more of a fit.

Canterbury
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Re: After 40 club

Post by Canterbury »

Outstanding thread guys. Please keep it going I'm learning a lot.

TBPenguin
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Re: After 40 club

Post by TBPenguin »

WallBilly wrote:
TBPenguin wrote:55 here, . . . .
Agree with the coach here - frequent easy weeks. Six weeks maximum without an easy week, but then it will really be needed. Three weeks hard, one week easy prevents getting run down. Easy weeks for me doesn't mean a week off. Instead I do less stressful stuff.
OK, I get that. But doesn't classic TB take care of that all by itself? The progression 70-80-90 then 75-85-95 means that every three weeks, the load is actually pretty light, either 70% or 75% of 1RM or TM. Would you not consider those to be "easy" weeks? I guess if you're doing I/A and pushing it way past 5 sets, not.
Maybe I was too aggressive in my forced progression. There is the reality of not being past one's prime strength levels and still having the urges to regain and surpass them, and there is being a hard head about dealing with that reality.

The 1/4 weeks and the 3/6 weeks were not bad. The 2/5 weeks were where I would feel it. I suspect that the new versions in TBIII where the 85% is for 3 reps, not 5, may work better to help me from getting into trouble, but haven't gotten there yet.

TBPenguin
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Re: After 40 club

Post by TBPenguin »

K.B. wrote:I agree muscle mass is important when you hit the age of your personal decline. If you're running a 3 or 4 day TB template, and your nutrition's dialed in, you should be putting on muscle mass. I use the phrase "avoiding hypertrophy" in the books with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in mind, NOT muscle mass in general. There's some debate about the sarcoplasmic vs myofibril hypertrophy these days - but I subscribe to the theory that there is a difference. I've seen it with my own training and others when it comes to running typical BB splits vs traditional low rep heavy weight strength training. Have a look at gymnasts or professional MMA fighters - there's a spectrum of muscle mass ranging from pretty big, to thin and wiry. How you set-up your TB protocols will allow you to manipulate where you want to be on that spectrum.

In my experience session volume + food intake + manipulating conditioning load trumps lowering the weight and rest interval. This is the general TB guide for putting on some beef:

1. Use a 3 or 4 day template (Op or Zulu)
2. Bump up to at least 4 work sets per exercise. This one's important.
3. Run Black Protocol (1 E every other week/maximum duration - 30 minutes). So 2 HICs every week. 1 E every other week (optional).
4. Ensure that your food intake matches your weight gain goal.
5. Choose HICs that are advantageous/complementary to your goal of maximizing muscle and power. Use GCs, sprints, things that contain dips, swings, pull-ups etc.
6. Use Creatine Monohydrate.

Here's another thing. Just because you can train like a Navy SEAL doesn't mean you should. If it doesn't align with your goals you shouldn't be doing it. If you're training for general health, muscle mass, and being a machine in your mid 40s and beyond, then you have no business running Green protocol. You have no business running Base more than once or twice a year.

Training like an operator is not the same as training to be healthy. Operators frequently have atrocious hormonal profiles (low testosterone/high cortisol/depleted mineral-vitamin levels) due to the high mileage and constant training. If you don't have to train like that why would you? If you do decide to train like them (Green protocol, extreme endurance etc.) then understand you will be paying the price in other areas like strength, hormones, bones and joints.

TB is designed to be customized for your personal situation (which can change). If you're an Operator, the tools are here. If you're a power/speed athlete, the tools are here. If you're somewhere in between, the tools are here. If you're 50+ and you decide you want to do a Go-Ruck or Spartan Beast, then simply re-arrange the pieces/templates/protocols to fit your new goal.
KB I'll echo everybody else - this is an awesome post. Huge amount of info that I for one can and will use. Especially appreciate the increased detail on conditioning. Thank you.

I know this is preaching to the choir, hell preaching to the composer, here, but from my perspective TB seems pretty ideal for the over 40 crowd. It has the focus on the important stuff (SQ, DL, WPU) and provides a way to include conditioning.

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Barkadion
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Re: After 40 club

Post by Barkadion »

TBPenguin wrote:I know this is preaching to the choir, hell preaching to the composer, here, but from my perspective TB seems pretty ideal for the over 40 crowd. It has the focus on the important stuff (SQ, DL, WPU) and provides a way to include conditioning.
That's exactly how I feel. Well.. I am just entering the waters.. ;)
"Man is what he reads." - Joseph Brodsky

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Re: After 40 club

Post by J-Madd »

That being said, one of the toughest guys I know (everyone has that toughest-guy-they-know) is in his mid 50s. A little ex-military Persian Muay Thai instructor that can pick apart, outlast and destroy the fittest and/or youngest in the class. Took him out for an 8k weighted run (kettlebell run with stops to do swings/snatches) and it didn't phase him very much. Another is an ex-SAS guy pushing 60, still rucks like he's 20 and does sledgehammer/tire work like a machine for HIC. So I don't know about old farts...but maybe tough cunning old bastards is more of a fit.
Certainly the guys that KB mentions here are extreme outliers, but there is a general point to be here. Those guys were probably extreme outliers their entire lives, and they are carrying it on well into their middle-age. Maybe the ex-SAS guy's time in a five mile ruck is a bit slower than when he was in his twenties, but he can still cover the ground along with all the other awesome stuff he has always done. I've see a lot of guys on forums panicking as their 30th birthday approaches (I find that really funny), as though they can expect to fall completely to shit on that day. The same thing, even more so, as they approach 40. I think we are so obsessed with youth here in the West that we way overplay the debilitation that must come with aging, or at least we expect it to happen so much earlier than it has to.

I'm not saying I'm anything near as awesome as the mofo's that KB mentions, but my case fits that pattern. I turned 43 in two months, and I don't feel like I've really slowed down very much. Just the opposite really. Sure, I don't hammer the weights for ME workouts four times/week like I did when I was in my twenties and early/mid thirties, but I also walked around as an overtrained, injured, and generally beat up semi-invalid for many of those years. Sure I don't load my back as often or as heavily as I used to, but I don't feel like that's a function of my age, but really just the consequence of some stupid behavior. If I hadn't picked up stress fractures in my lumbar playing American football, I bet there would be no problem for me. I have "slowed down" in some ways not because of my age, but because realized that I was doing a lot of dumb ass things. In other words, its injury accumulation, bad mobility patterns, and such that I picked up from poor training for decades, and not my age, that I think causes me problems. I do better on auto-regulated programs with more days off now, but I probably would've done better on such programs back when I was a younger man. In terms of my intensity of conditioning, mobility, strength relative to my bodyweight, body composition, endurances, etc., etc., etc., I am absolutely better than I've ever been, and I'm only getting better. Now I've thrown in martial arts for the first time in my life (or at least since I stopped wrestling as a kid), and that has only been positive.

Of course I'm going to fade, and so will the exemplars KB mentions. That's is the way of all flesh. No doubt, my actual performance in my 40s is short of what an equally well-trained athlete in his twenties can do. For example, I simply cannot match the college wrestles I sometimes workout/roll with in terms of speed and agility. Their speed beats me. That performance dip is far less than you might think; I can absolutely hang with (or sometimes out perform those same college wrestlers in terms of strength, endurance, and anaerobic capacity -- they have to work dam hard to beat me. In short, in terms of your work capacity, strength, and endurance, my experience is that you will fade a lot more slowly (if at all!) than you think. My point is that threshold can be pushed far deeper into our middle age or even senior years than our youth obsessed culture would have us believe!

Now maybe in November I'll fall part on my 43rd birthday, but I'm not betting on that!

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