'Legs giving away before lungs'

[hrishi]

Hi Folks!

I am 32, an avid hiker who used to never work out or even visited a gym. That changed a two years ago when I moved to Colorado, where as a mean to cover more terrain in a day, I got into trail running, and before I knew it into mountaineering and backcountry skiing. I moved to Southern California but aim to continue these pursuits. I am still an average beginner in these- both fitness and skill wise-, but doing these I became more fit while losing 25lb. However soon after, I got injured with runners knee (Also a twisted ankle from not understanding how the resort ski lifts work!). I have somewhat recovered from this thanks to some resistance band and kettlebell training suggested by a PT.

There is a line in TB II that resonates with me - a runner who’s legs start wobbling mid run; i.e. 'legs giving out out before lungs’. Running literature that I have read doesn’t really emphasize on maximal strength training, but more on low weight, high reps stuff, and getting stronger by just progressively increasing the run volume. However, recently I’ve been inspired by a new colleague (who is incredibly strong for her BW and shares similar pursuits in the outdoors; she used to do competitive biking and now does Crossfit and climbing for fitness) to start weight training, mainly to avoid further injuries and to increase my speed. Currently, my overall lack of fitness also inhibits me from learning activity-specific skills - people would be more excited to mentor me if I am closer to their own fitness level. My ultimate dream would be doing long, ~30-mile self-supported runs with ~10,000 ft elevation gain in alpine terrain (less oxygen) within a matter of 6-7 hours; doing multi-day snow climbs with ~50 lb backpacks AND not be the slowest member of the team; doing long day, multi-day ski tours!

Since past month, I have started weight training at a local barbell-specific gym, and have read several books on strength training: Rippetoe’s SS, Pavel’s PTTP and S&S, TB I and TBII, as well as a domain specific book- ‘Training for New Alpinism’. Apart from SS, all others focus on ‘relative strength’, i.e. getting stronger for a given bodyweight without bulking up, while also training for endurance. TB’s flexible modular philosophy seems perfect as I can combine exercises from Alpinism and Pavel’s books as well as TB I and II’s excellent clusters within the Operator/ Fighter templates. However the FAQs here emphasize that TB is not really for beginners and recommend a LP instead followed by a transition to TB once the ‘newbie gains’ are achieved.
1. Weight is important for mountaineering, so I don’t want to bulk up, and would like to be ’skinny strong’. Would you still recommend doing a LP first instead of starting TB directly? Please also refer to my ideas in #3 and #4.
2. Related to #1. I understand that sticking to LP would likely expedite the newbie gains. However, would it possible to harness the same newbie gains with TB, albeit at a lesser speed? (As a recreational athlete, I don’t mind waiting for an year instead of having to buy a new wardrobe from temporary bulking) or would mixing HIC/ E/ SE training with MS permanently harm the newbie gains and inhibit them from realizing? If so, then between HIC, E, and SE is there any particular that you’d recommend to completely avoid while aiming to gain more max strength?
3. How does this sound: Start with Black + Operator initially as I gain strength, then once the easy gains stop move to Green standard template + Fighter. I am not a stickler for programs, but I figure doing these with the tentative clusters described below should make me a lot stronger and fitter. If they work out, I doubt I'll ever change them!
4. I was thinking of minimalist exercise clusters with not much variation. How do these sound? Apart from trail running, mountaineering and backcountry skiing, I am also into mountain biking and squash, and eager to get into rock climbing.
1. MS:
- Initially: DL, SQ, bench, and assisted pull ups
- Later: DL, SQ, dips, and WPU
2. SE:
- A cluster of unilateral exercises- single leg deadlift, Bulgarian split squats, and single arm dumbbell OHP
- Outdoor activities: Weekend hikes/ ski tours, Squash, MTB, and Rock climbing(?)
3. HIC:
- Hill sprints (I am fortunate to live by a trailhead to a 4500 ft gain mountain which I would love to run to some day! )
- Plyometrics
4. E: LSS easy trail runs

Relevant information:
Weight: 152 lb (have a small belly and man boobs)
Height 5 ft 11”
Performance:
Last run (past Friday): 4 mile trail run with 650 ft gain @ 11:15 min/mile
Last snow climb (past Sunday): 8 mile with 4000 ft gain (2.5 mile approach hike and 1.5 mile climb) @ 1 hr/ mile. Ideally would like to reduce this to 0.5 hr/mile
Back squat: 115 lb x 3 sets x 5 rep (this is my 3rd squat session ever)
Deadlift: 205 x 3 x 3 (5th session ever. For some reason, my DL is much better than my squat)
Bench: 85 lb x 3 x 5 (4th session ever)

Thanks a bunch!
Hrishi

[CD51]

So you already know that the answer is to use linear progression. Rippetoe, Wendler, the russian guy and KB are all in agreement on this.

It is hard to find anything better the SS. But you have to do the program. Don’t run, hike, play squash and then not eat and wonder why you aren’t getting stronger. Do the program.

You will benefit from getting stronger and you will need to grow some muscle to do that at this point. I find it very funny when women, and some men, get worried about getting all bulky and slow overnight. It will not happen. There are miillions of teenaged boys, with peak testosterone levels and no real life stressors, proving every day that building muscle isn’t easy. It’s simple but it’s not easy.

Spend two or three months learning the lifts and getting stronger. Do some walking on the weekends but nothing hard. Eat. Add a 100 pounds to your dead and squat. If that doesn’t help in your other activities you can always go back to your current strength levels. But since you have identified that you lack the strength to perform at the level you want, that won’t be the case.

[TBK]

We have similar interests and it's been a few years, but I really enjoyed "Training for the new Alpinism". If I remember correctly the training principles in that book were based on the same Eastern bloc/periodization training as Tactical Barbell.

My .02, It seems to me your overthinking things. For your goals and activities you need endurace and strength, in that order. I would run a strength first base building block, followed by a couple of Green/ Fighter(Bangkok) blocks. I think it's the perfect blend for mountain enthusiasts.

I didn't see rucking included anywhere in your post. I know you'll be doing alot of recreational hiking, you can utilize that time and structure it a bit to practice rucking. Throw an extra 10 or 20 pounds in your pack. Especially if you have aspirations of long multi day ski tours. As you know, mountaineering crap adds up quick. Heres an interesting read on some military research in regards to rucking. https://www.otpbooks.com/mike-prevost-r ... -programs/

Your max strength cluster of bench, squat, deadlift and pullups looks good. I would keep it like that.
I would simplify your strength endurance cluster. Get rid of the unilateral stuff. I say this because right now you want to focus on getting your overall strength up, and training your CNS to fire. That means multi joint (compound) movements. It can still be minimalist. Heres where you can throw in your dips. More pullups if you want to get into rock climbing.

And like cd51 mentioned, don't worry about getting too big. It's simply not going to happen. Especially when you're logging 40-60 miles a week. Don't hesitate on eating, you're going to need those calories and they will be put to good use.

[Adski]

x2 what TBK said.

You would do well completing base building then trainsitioning to fighter green or operator/green.

[hrishi]

Thanks folks, very useful comments!

I do agree I'm overthinking- after all I do get paid (meagerly) to overthink!
It seems I'll go with BB with Strength First and then switch to Operator/Green (if I am still making a lot of progress in MS) and then maintain Fighter(Bangkok)/Green.

@TBK, thanks for clarifying several things! Yes, I do plan on rucking- and box step ups as well
About unilateral cluster: I included them for SE because Single Leg Deadlifts did help me improve my ankle after sprain. But may be I'll keep it simple for a first few blocks and focus on more compound movements.

A couple of more questions:
What are your thoughts on bench vs OHP vs push press? If I were to choose only one of these for a minimal MS cluster, which one would you recommend? (the other upper-body lift being WPU). As a minimalist cluster, can I simply remove an upper-body 'push' lift and just focus on SQ, DL and WPU?

I also wonder if there are some strength standards for endurance athletes? E.g. if I can deadlift x times my BW, then I have gathered decent enough MS and then work to maintain it and improve on SE and HIC? Something that might serve as a more objective point to move from Operator/Green to Fighter/Green.

[TBK]

I'm going to preface this post by saying the best program is the one that you enjoy and can stick with. Consistency wins out everytime. Having said that....

then switch to Operator/Green (if I am still making a lot of progress in MS) and then maintain Fighter(Bangkok)/Green.

I think you're still trying to progress everything all at once. Operator with Green is a huge workload with opposing priorities. If strength is your priority I would recommend Black Pro with Operator. Based on your initial post it seems endurance is your priority, I still recommend Green/Fighter. I think you'll be surprised how much strength you gain with Fighter. Again, it's up to whatever you prioritize.

A couple of more questions:
What are your thoughts on bench vs OHP vs push press? If I were to choose only one of these for a minimal MS cluster, which one would you recommend? (the other upper-body lift being WPU). As a minimalist cluster, can I simply remove an upper-body 'push' lift and just focus on SQ, DL and WPU?

Personal preference. My opinion is that bench belongs in the max strength cluster and OHP/push press in your SE cluster. Up to you. Or do a cycle(8-12 weeks) with one, then mix it up. Tons of options.

If you're trying to pare down your cluster, I would keep a push movement, drop the deadlift, and incorporate KB swings in some other area (HICs, SE, fun rucks etc).

I also wonder if there are some strength standards for endurance athletes? E.g. if I can deadlift x times my BW, then I have gathered decent enough MS and then work to maintain it and improve on SE and HIC? Something that might serve as a more objective point to move from Operator/Green to Fighter/Green.

There are some charts or calculators online with your age, weight, height inputs and they give you your average lift numbers. I don't use them or put alot of stock into them. This journey is all about your goals and what YOU want.

[hrishi]

Thanks @TBK for another great reply!
After two outdoor activities over last 3 days where I was paying attention to my body, I now better appreciate what you meant by my priority is likely 'endurance followed by strength'- I did a long 20 mile snow hike (involving traversing steeper slopes thus needing crampons, mtneering boots, ice axe etc and gaining 5800 ft) where towards the end the legs felt super heavy even though my heart rate was pretty normal. And raced a 5k where I felt my lungs would explode (but legs did fine).
I will prioritize endurance over strength and go with Fighter (Bangkok) + Green.

I completely agree about consistency- I was surprised that I was fast during yesterday's 5K (26:28 mins) despite not really running more than once a week, but consistently working out 6 days a week!

I also liked your advice about clusters and follow it. Will let y'all know how it goes!

[TBK]

Good luck!

[Liftrunwrite]

I just wanted to chime in here because I have experience with LP and a massive cardio load--after boot camp my average mpw running was somewhere around 40-50 plus usually a 10+ mile ruck and also a swim at some point. I did SS and while maintaining speed I went from my emaciated 160-post-boot-camp weight to 195 and like 12% body fat. My cardio and my strength both shot up, but as others have said, you have to eat. I think I was averaging somewhere around 4000 calories a day, maybe more, I wasn't really tracking, I just got seconds at every meal, ate 95% clean, and took a big protein shake after every workout. That shake was like 50g protein and 150g carbs if I remember my mixing ratios correctly. I used just whey, honey, and oats.

Needless to say I should have stuck with all that instead of after my first deployment allowing the allure of powerlifting to turn me into a slow motherfucker.

Point is: It's doable, just figure out what you need to eat and don't try and skimp calories.

[hrishi]

I just wanted to chime in here because I have experience with LP and a massive cardio load--after boot camp my average mpw running was somewhere around 40-50 plus usually a 10+ mile ruck and also a swim at some point. I did SS and while maintaining speed I went from my emaciated 160-post-boot-camp weight to 195 and like 12% body fat. My cardio and my strength both shot up, but as others have said, you have to eat. I think I was averaging somewhere around 4000 calories a day, maybe more, I wasn't really tracking, I just got seconds at every meal, ate 95% clean, and took a big protein shake after every workout. That shake was like 50g protein and 150g carbs if I remember my mixing ratios correctly. I used just whey, honey, and oats.

Needless to say I should have stuck with all that instead of after my first deployment allowing the allure of powerlifting to turn me into a slow motherfucker.

Point is: It's doable, just figure out what you need to eat and don't try and skimp calories.

Thanks for sharing your experience! that's awesome that you were able to do both. I do have a clean diet (home cooked vegetarian food rich in proteins- lots of nuts and lentils/ beans).

I'll soon start sharing my workout log!