Some base building questions

[Crepsucule]

Hey all,
I have roughly 6-7 months to get as much work in as I can before I will have an enlistment date locked in for the Army (Aus), so I'm looking to build as solid a base as I can with a few caveats to it and I'm looking for a bit of advice if I can.

I am currently sitting at 97kg/215lbish and looking to drop to ~85kg/190lb before really pushing to build my strength again. Ideally I would like to drop this weight ASAP so that bodyweight exercises, which will be a big focus for a period of time, will be easier and I will be able to start hitting pull ups on a regular basis.

Is it possible to still induce cardiac hypertrophy while in a caloric deficit? I run ~10 days a fortnight currently however these have been 15-20 minute runs which I have just started pushing out to longer times. I am thinking of going hard on a PSMF for a month or two to cut the fat ASAP and wondering if there would be any point me running BB if I am unable to induce any adaptions on such a severe calorie deficit or if it would be better to push running BB later. Any searches I have done have come up with the obligatory "cardio for fat loss" results

Also, would there be any point running a double BB? Either 8 week, half week off, run again from scratch or go for a full 16 weeks maxing runs at 60min with 90+ long runs, or would it be better to jump to a Green style protocol?

Thanks in advance guys

[Aelian]

You're overthinking things. Forget about a caloric deficit, bulking, cutting, and all that jazz. I recommend you keep it simple and follow the program as outlined:

1. Go to an athletic nutrition site and calculate your TDEE. "Eat to Perform" gets recommended here a lot.

2. Run Base Building. If you're out of shape do Alpha circuits. Incorporate a mix of bodyweight and weighted exercises in your SE cluster. Incorporate the exercises you'll typically face once you hit boot (push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups). Keep it simple and jog OUTSIDE for your Base. Don't worry about rucking and Fun-Runs right now. You have enough time to do that during Continuation. Build your aerobic engine first.

3. After Base Building run Green + Fighter/Bangkok. Incorporate lots of Fun-Runs, Rucking, and Fast 5s during Continuation. Again, during SE day use army exercises, mixed in with one or two weighted movements.

4. Eat your required daily amount.

Everything else will fall into place. There's no need to run Base twice.

I'd also recommend doing 3 x SE per week when you do your Base. If you search the forum, KB or J-Madd have posted about how to do this. Essentially you'll be doing 3 SE + 3 E every week.

[Mug Costanza]

Hi Crep, I'll add my .02 because it seems relevant. I lost 11lbs during Base Building, and I've always been stubbornly overweight. All I did was run and circuit train (bodyweight S-E). I'm not in the military (just a regular cubicle monkey lol) so take it for what it's worth.

[Balaclava]

x2 on everything Alien outlined. Cardiac "hypertrophy" isn't exactly like trying to build your biceps, you don't need a certain caloric intake.

One thing I'll throw in, include pull-ups in your SE cluster. But instead of using 30 as your max# (as you would for the other SE exercises) cap your pull-ups at 20. So week 1 = 10, week 2 = 20, week 3-8 = 20. You likely won't be able to complete all reps of all circuits continuously which isn't an issue, that's the way SE is supposed to be. Just keep squeezing your pull-ups out in sets of 1-5 after you hit that wall, until you reach 20.

Base & Green is generally going to be more challenging than anything you face at basic, at least in the physical department. You'll be more prepared than most.

[Maxrip13]

im ex aus army. The fitness standards at kapooka are a joke and you will easily meet the standards. I lost so much fitness there it wasn't funny. This was 7 + years ago. Some things have changed though and they have added a new test called the Pesa. This is a step in the right direction and is finally getting some of the unfit people out of the combat roles.

What corps are you joining and I will tell you what to focus on. Go for a trade if you aren't already. Infantry sounds cool, but with the current overseas climate you have much better options.

[Crepsucule]

Hey all,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

1. Go to an athletic nutrition site and calculate your TDEE. "Eat to Perform" gets recommended here a lot.

Personally I hate counting calories, after dieting by counting calories from 120kg down to where I am now it is painful and depressing to the extreme, I mostly try to eat intuitively though frankly I have a sweet tooth I need to knuckle down on as I know it is what is really hampering me, possibly along with not eating enough in general, another side effect of being fat that I need to address. STFU and do it or would just knuckling down on the junk be okay?

Keep it simple and jog OUTSIDE for your Base.

All of my running and all of the running I have ever done is outside, mostly road work with a little bit of trails, depending. When walking to/from work 99% of the time when I walk I take a trail around the back which has a few hills in it, some of the running by necessity is also over hills to/from work, most of it is on moderately flat ground however. At the moment Im doing my best to push for a slower pace as I always go harder unless I really knuckle down. My last two runs were at about a 9-9:30 mile pace, doing 5.2/5k in the 30 mins, the second run with a leg of it on a trail which slowed me down a bit.

I'd also recommend doing 3 x SE per week when you do your Base.

With the low numbers on Push Ups and not yet able to do pull ups would it be better for me to go with a strength first approach or just grind out rows/negatives? Ideally Id like to be able to crank out 10-20 good, solid dead hang pull ups by the time I hit basic. My main issue here will be my schedule for work, I basically do a 2D3N, 7Off, 4N, 1 1/2Off, 3D, 2Off, 2D, 3Off, repeat, working over every day/night within a month so setting my schedule on a Monday-Sunday doesnt really work for me and I will be doing my E Sessions as part of transit to/from work, so I will be running E days back to back frequently up to 3 days in a row, add in Overtime shifts and it can go up to 10 in a row where running will be done out of necessity.

I lost 11lbs during Base Building, and I've always been stubbornly overweight.

Thats awesome. Ive personally dropped from 120kg down to 97kg, 93kg at my lowest so a solid 50lb fat loss, though putting on some decent muscle, however I find I plateau hard at 96kg and 93kg, were you counting calories while running base?

One thing I'll throw in, include pull-ups in your SE cluster. But instead of using 30 as your max# (as you would for the other SE exercises) cap your pull-ups at 20. So week 1 = 10, week 2 = 20, week 3-8 = 20. You likely won't be able to complete all reps of all circuits continuously which isn't an issue, that's the way SE is supposed to be. Just keep squeezing your pull-ups out in sets of 1-5 after you hit that wall, until you reach 20.

Embarrassingly this isnt really an option at the moment, this being one of the reasons I want to cut the weight, Im not interested in cutting weight for looks, just to make calisthenics easier, hopefully be able to start doing pull ups and make the running a little more comfortable, I have no issues with my weight for running. I am painfully unable to even do one good solid pull up as yet, I get about 2/3 of the way up then just stick. I can do decent controlled negatives and bodyweight rows happily enough, would it be better to sub in one of the two instead?

What corps are you joining and I will tell you what to focus on. Go for a trade if you aren't already. Infantry sounds cool, but with the current overseas climate you have much better options.

I'm hanging out for Medical Technician, Ive had lots of family/friends/colleagues who are currently serving or out and one of the things I had drilled into me was to get something out of it. Callous as it sounds "being able to shoot and run wont get you a job afterwards", with the military pension gone theres no real drive to do a full 20 years any more so Im going in with the mindset of if its not a lifestyle I find myself addicted to and willing to live until either I die or cant physically do it any more I want qualifications I can walk out with and use anywhere.
While alot of the training will be for the military, I want to just cruise through basic physically and hopefully be in a good position to run another BB once I hit IET before moving to build. Im not really considering SF at the moment but once Ive been in for a couple years and Im confident in my job I may consider it, depending on a number of things. Mainly I want the fitness for my own peace of mind, if I can smoke the BFA day dot then all of Kapooka should be a breeze and I may be able to maintain a good chunk of my fitness off my own back so I can jump in and build from a better base once I hit IET.

Thanks for your replies guys

[Maxrip13]

I'm hanging out for Medical Technician, Ive had lots of family/friends/colleagues who are currently serving or out and one of the things I had drilled into me was to get something out of it. Callous as it sounds "being able to shoot and run wont get you a job afterwards", with the military pension gone theres no real drive to do a full 20 years any more so Im going in with the mindset of if its not a lifestyle I find myself addicted to and willing to live until either I die or cant physically do it any more I want qualifications I can walk out with and use anywhere.
While alot of the training will be for the military, I want to just cruise through basic physically and hopefully be in a good position to run another BB once I hit IET before moving to build. Im not really considering SF at the moment but once Ive been in for a couple years and Im confident in my job I may consider it, depending on a number of things. Mainly I want the fitness for my own peace of mind, if I can smoke the BFA day dot then all of Kapooka should be a breeze and I may be able to maintain a good chunk of my fitness off my own back so I can jump in and build from a better base once I hit IET.

Thanks for your replies guys

Yeah sweet just making sure you have the right approach to it and leave with something useful. I will also mention that even as a medic your quals are limited, but at least it's a starting point. I was meant to transfer to that, but let's just say I was lied to and got stuck in a job that I wasn;t really interested in. Don't believe them if they say you can transfer at kapooka, go in with the course you actually want to do.

The basic bfa is easy and simply incuding pushups and situps in a base build will get you were you need to be for kapooka and IET's. PT at IET's isn't much harder on top of that. The main bit people struggle with is the new Pesa. I won't go into full detail on here, but it's usually the farmers walks with 20 kg jerries that do people in. Luckily you are a bigger guy and should have no issues carrying the weight.

You won't get the chance to do much extra at kapooka fitness wise. They fill up the days pretty well. I used to get told off for doing pullups on the door frames...
Just do a normal basebuild, followed by operator black with the longer style run HICs to get those strength levels up there and drop some bodyweight. From there you should know your weaknesses and can work on them. You could finish up with green, but make sure you go in with no little niggles from training too hard. Get through that place ASAP, because you have a long IET course to get through also. You are a decent size so should have no issues with the packmarching, but you still want a little more strength to be prepared for that.

I can go into more if you like, but trust me when I say that you will have no issues fitness wise if you are moderately fit. They cover off on fitness there, but most of it is just wrapping your head around not being able to stop and rest when you want to. Pace yourself and make sure you can finish the session because if someone stuffs up you are doing extra runs for "being too slow". I used to go as hard as possible and end up puking and you look less fit than the guy who sandbags through at half the pace, but didn't spew. Enjoy the obstacle course stuff also. None of it is that challenging, but some of it is quite fun.

Biggest tip is Shut up and never talk back. The instructors are right even when they are wrong.
Enjoy Albury for 18 months and try to move off base ASAP, but not with a local girl. Some are nice, but issues will arise because you are going North regardless. Don't drink away all your pay either haha.

[Aelian]

1. Go to an athletic nutrition site and calculate your TDEE. "Eat to Perform" gets recommended here a lot.

Personally I hate counting calories, after dieting by counting calories from 120kg down to where I am now it is painful and depressing to the extreme, I mostly try to eat intuitively though frankly I have a sweet tooth I need to knuckle down on as I know it is what is really hampering me, possibly along with not eating enough in general, another side effect of being fat that I need to address. STFU and do it or would just knuckling down on the junk be okay?

No I don't recommend counting calories. You mentioned a calorie deficit in your original post, so was just making sure you weren't doing any planned under-eating. It is nice to know roughly how much you should be eating every day, but in my opinion no need to be a stickler for every calorie.

Keep it simple and jog OUTSIDE for your Base.

All of my running and all of the running I have ever done is outside, mostly road work with a little bit of trails, depending. When walking to/from work 99% of the time when I walk I take a trail around the back which has a few hills in it, some of the running by necessity is also over hills to/from work, most of it is on moderately flat ground however. At the moment Im doing my best to push for a slower pace as I always go harder unless I really knuckle down. My last two runs were at about a 9-9:30 mile pace, doing 5.2/5k in the 30 mins, the second run with a leg of it on a trail which slowed me down a bit.

Remember to follow the heartrate guidelines in TB. Better to go too slow than too fast during Base (doesn't apply to Continuation). Run for time, not distance.

I'd also recommend doing 3 x SE per week when you do your Base.

With the low numbers on Push Ups and not yet able to do pull ups would it be better for me to go with a strength first approach or just grind out rows/negatives? Ideally Id like to be able to crank out 10-20 good, solid dead hang pull ups by the time I hit basic. My main issue here will be my schedule for work, I basically do a 2D3N, 7Off, 4N, 1 1/2Off, 3D, 2Off, 2D, 3Off, repeat, working over every day/night within a month so setting my schedule on a Monday-Sunday doesnt really work for me and I will be doing my E Sessions as part of transit to/from work, so I will be running E days back to back frequently up to 3 days in a row, add in Overtime shifts and it can go up to 10 in a row where running will be done out of necessity.

No, stick with SE. Doesn't matter how low your numbers are. Do one rep at a time if you have to. But yeah, stick to alpha circuits.

I am painfully unable to even do one good solid pull up as yet, I get about 2/3 of the way up then just stick. I can do decent controlled negatives and bodyweight rows happily enough, would it be better to sub in one of the two instead?
[/quote]

Yes, do controlled negatives/or assisted band pull-ups/whatever you have to do. Def include some form of pull-ups/chins in your cluster. You will eventually get one full PU in, and then they start rolling like dominoes after that first.


Maxrip has given you some awesome advice specific to your country's military, so that trumps anything I tell you here that's contradicting.

[Aelian]

let's just say I was lied to and got stuck in a job that I wasn;t really interested in. Don't believe them if they say you can transfer at kapooka, go in with the course you actually want to do.

Enjoy Albury for 18 months and try to move off base ASAP, but not with a local girl. Some are nice, but issues will arise because you are going North regardless. Don't drink away all your pay either haha.

Hahahaha...nice to see the army is the army regardless of country.

[Crepsucule]

Yeah sweet just making sure you have the right approach to it and leave with something useful. I will also mention that even as a medic your quals are limited, but at least it's a starting point. I was meant to transfer to that, but let's just say I was lied to and got stuck in a job that I wasn't really interested in. Don't believe them if they say you can transfer at Kapooka, go in with the course you actually want to do.

Yeah, first time I met my uncle at like 11 he was pretty high up in the tankies and he asked what I wanted to do. Being a naive kid at the time of course it was "I want to be a sniper!". "No you don't, you don't want to sit in a tree for three days shitting yourself or spend a day crawling through a field of mud while pissing your pants".....Yeah, that pulled me up pretty quickly

Unfortunately my application has taken nearly two years at this point, spent about 6 months working my ass off to afford some dental work, spent three months getting dicked around by doctors who wouldn't do the referrals requested and then I'm on my third enlistment coordinator at the moment as my first one wasn't doing anything for anyone, second one was the area manager and just disappeared and I have only just heard from the third after about three months of silence. From the sounds of it they have gutted recruiting in Perth and started from scratch I've passed all my medicals etc. and was told that there are 27 spots this financial year but 100% of them will be female, first shot for a male will potentially be next financial year, good ole quotas and all that, sigh. I was going to take another spot in a combat branch and just sell a corps transfer hard but at this point I'll be setting myself back 12+ months so may as well wait, bank some money and work on my fitness.

Biggest tip is Shut up and never talk back. The instructors are right even when they are wrong.
Enjoy Albury for 18 months and try to move off base ASAP, but not with a local girl. Some are nice, but issues will arise because you are going North regardless. Don't drink away all your pay either haha.

This will probably be my hardest part, I hate incompetents in positions of authority and have fun going for them, but ah well, grey man til I'm qualified then we'll see Thankfully I don't really drink or anything so just going to be working my ass off through Basic/IET until I get a posting and can have a life again

Yes, do controlled negatives/or assisted band pull-ups/whatever you have to do. Def include some form of pull-ups/chins in your cluster. You will eventually get one full PU in, and then they start rolling like dominoes after that first.

Thanks for this, I'll implement negatives for base then. Should I re-test and if I'm able to start doing full dead hangs, even if its one, start going from there or would it be better to stick with higher rep negatives for base? I feel that I'm close to hitting a full dead hang and just the extra weight holding me back, once I can bang out one solid one I'll probably dive head first into GtG for a while til I can rep out 5 or so before including them in any programming.

Thanks all

Edit: Just looked up the PESA, 5km march in 55 minutes in basic kit, 150m farmers walks with 2x 22kg jerry cans and a box lift of 25kg to 1.5m.....
You'd think the military would be kinda immune to all the OH&S etc. and have reasonably high standards compared to civvie street, ya know being expected to go into combat at any time etc. Oh well, just going to have to smoke it all and make it look easy