Programming around a weak knee

[dpritchett]

Hi everyone! I've been on TB since November and things are going great - solid progress on all lifts and actual PRs on the pullups: from 185x3 to 231x2 reps in about six months.

For the last few months I've been doing operator + black with a bench/squat/WPU cluster. It's all gone well except my knees take enough of a beating just from the squats to where I'm uncomfortable sprinting much on HIC days. I love sprinting so this is a bummer. I've taken to doing most of my conditioning in the pool because my shoulders and back weren't feeling the same strain as my knees.

I'm experimenting with a deadlift+ohp cluster right now so I can maybe find room for sprints again.

Anyone else program around a specific bad joint? I chipped my right tibia a few years ago and my left side has always been stronger. I just stretch and use wraps and try not to overdo it. I also recently discovered that my knees like squatting better if I bring my feet a little closer together, point my toes a bit more forward, and shift my weight forward just enough to keep my toes engaged the entire lift. Guess I was too far out and my knees were bowing in all these years - I'm 36 and I've lifted off and on for a decade or so. TB has been more enjoyable and sustainable than anything else I've tried - no burnouts yet!

[DocOctagon]

Hi everyone! I've been on TB since November and things are going great - solid progress on all lifts and actual PRs on the pullups: from 185x3 to 231x2 reps in about six months.

For the last few months I've been doing operator + black with a bench/squat/WPU cluster. It's all gone well except my knees take enough of a beating just from the squats to where I'm uncomfortable sprinting much on HIC days. I love sprinting so this is a bummer. I've taken to doing most of my conditioning in the pool because my shoulders and back weren't feeling the same strain as my knees.

I'm experimenting with a deadlift+ohp cluster right now so I can maybe find room for sprints again.

Anyone else program around a specific bad joint? I chipped my right tibia a few years ago and my left side has always been stronger. I just stretch and use wraps and try not to overdo it. I also recently discovered that my knees like squatting better if I bring my feet a little closer together, point my toes a bit more forward, and shift my weight forward just enough to keep my toes engaged the entire lift. Guess I was too far out and my knees were bowing in all these years - I'm 36 and I've lifted off and on for a decade or so. TB has been more enjoyable and sustainable than anything else I've tried - no burnouts yet!

Great job on the PRs!

No specific advice, but it sounds like you're on the right track with subbing in DLs for squats.

[WallBilly]

You sound like an experienced lifter, so I held off on answering and giving you answers that were obvious or that you already know. So, this is just my experience, feel free to take it or leave it.

I have a really wobbly ACL from multiple injuries when young and stupid, and found out when I was around 22 that if I didn't lift weights, my knees would start to be really sore (almost arthritic) just from everyday life. That was 33 years ago.

Since then I have been pretty religious about working out, but I only got into hard-core squats and deadlifts 3 years ago. Before that it was mainly machines except for benching.

I have found that squats in particular have been beneficial to my knee pain. In fact, it's completely gone. Along with my back pain and hip pain that you're gonna' have when you get into your mid 50s.

I've done quite a bit of research on squat form, gotten some coaching, and experimented on myself. Your injuries may be different than mine, but here is what I have found:

1. You mentioned that your knees were maybe out too far forward. If your lower body looks like a scissors jack from the side, your knees are asking for trouble. Most reputable coaches recommend that the knee should go no further forward than the toes, or maybe just slightly more than that. This completely changes the motion and stress of the squat, for the better. The back angle needs to be more flat to keep the bar over mid-foot, instead of turning your legs into a scissors jack with a fairly vertical back.

2. The knee should track the foot angle. If you have fairly straight feet, perpendicular to your shoulders, the knees need to stay straight. No buckling in or out. If you use an angled foot (I prefer about 30 degrees), the knee has to flare out so it is pointing in the same direction as the toes. I find it easier to get full depth this way, which is the only way to really recruit the hamstrings and butt in the movement, and which seems to give the best results for me all over. Again, after I started doing these right, the squat slayed my pain. I also found that I liked my feet closer together than most guys I see.

3. If you are not getting full depth (thighs parallel to the ground or better), you may be using too much weight which could be bothering your knees. I shudder when I'm at the gym and I see some of the bros doing shitty half squats (or even quarter squats) with way too much weight on the bar. But they sure are proud of their squats.

Again, your injuries may be different than mine, but I found that proper squatting improved my knee health.

Good luck.

[Barkadion]

You sound like an experienced lifter, so I held off on answering and giving you answers that were obvious or that you already know. So, this is just my experience, feel free to take it or leave it.

I have a really wobbly ACL from multiple injuries when young and stupid, and found out when I was around 22 that if I didn't lift weights, my knees would start to be really sore (almost arthritic) just from everyday life. That was 33 years ago.

Since then I have been pretty religious about working out, but I only got into hard-core squats and deadlifts 3 years ago. Before that it was mainly machines except for benching.

I have found that squats in particular have been beneficial to my knee pain. In fact, it's completely gone. Along with my back pain and hip pain that you're gonna' have when you get into your mid 50s.

I've done quite a bit of research on squat form, gotten some coaching, and experimented on myself. Your injuries may be different than mine, but here is what I have found:

1. You mentioned that your knees were maybe out too far forward. If your lower body looks like a scissors jack from the side, your knees are asking for trouble. Most reputable coaches recommend that the knee should go no further forward than the toes, or maybe just slightly more than that. This completely changes the motion and stress of the squat, for the better. The back angle needs to be more flat to keep the bar over mid-foot, instead of turning your legs into a scissors jack with a fairly vertical back.

2. The knee should track the foot angle. If you have fairly straight feet, perpendicular to your shoulders, the knees need to stay straight. No buckling in or out. If you use an angled foot (I prefer about 30 degrees), the knee has to flare out so it is pointing in the same direction as the toes. I find it easier to get full depth this way, which is the only way to really recruit the hamstrings and butt in the movement, and which seems to give the best results for me all over. Again, after I started doing these right, the squat slayed my pain. I also found that I liked my feet closer together than most guys I see.

3. If you are not getting full depth (thighs parallel to the ground or better), you may be using too much weight which could be bothering your knees. I shudder when I'm at the gym and I see some of the bros doing shitty half squats (or even quarter squats) with way too much weight on the bar. But they sure are proud of their squats.

Again, your injuries may be different than mine, but I found that proper squatting improved my knee health.

Good luck.

I want to echo WB respond by saying that I get some knees issues from time to time. And usually it gets fixed by some proper warm up and squatting below the parallel (I even do ATG very often). The point is that proper squat does take care of the knee. And it does heal it as well.

Just my 2c..

[Aelian]

You sound like an experienced lifter, so I held off on answering and giving you answers that were obvious or that you already know. So, this is just my experience, feel free to take it or leave it.

I have a really wobbly ACL from multiple injuries when young and stupid, and found out when I was around 22 that if I didn't lift weights, my knees would start to be really sore (almost arthritic) just from everyday life. That was 33 years ago.

Since then I have been pretty religious about working out, but I only got into hard-core squats and deadlifts 3 years ago. Before that it was mainly machines except for benching.

I have found that squats in particular have been beneficial to my knee pain. In fact, it's completely gone. Along with my back pain and hip pain that you're gonna' have when you get into your mid 50s.

I've done quite a bit of research on squat form, gotten some coaching, and experimented on myself. Your injuries may be different than mine, but here is what I have found:

1. You mentioned that your knees were maybe out too far forward. If your lower body looks like a scissors jack from the side, your knees are asking for trouble. Most reputable coaches recommend that the knee should go no further forward than the toes, or maybe just slightly more than that. This completely changes the motion and stress of the squat, for the better. The back angle needs to be more flat to keep the bar over mid-foot, instead of turning your legs into a scissors jack with a fairly vertical back.

2. The knee should track the foot angle. If you have fairly straight feet, perpendicular to your shoulders, the knees need to stay straight. No buckling in or out. If you use an angled foot (I prefer about 30 degrees), the knee has to flare out so it is pointing in the same direction as the toes. I find it easier to get full depth this way, which is the only way to really recruit the hamstrings and butt in the movement, and which seems to give the best results for me all over. Again, after I started doing these right, the squat slayed my pain. I also found that I liked my feet closer together than most guys I see.

3. If you are not getting full depth (thighs parallel to the ground or better), you may be using too much weight which could be bothering your knees. I shudder when I'm at the gym and I see some of the bros doing shitty half squats (or even quarter squats) with way too much weight on the bar. But they sure are proud of their squats.

Again, your injuries may be different than mine, but I found that proper squatting improved my knee health.

Good luck.

Great post....good info.