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The other thing that comes up here and with Rippetoe is, older lifters generally need more recovery time.

"Older" and "more" are subjective terms, of course.

I'm thinking of moving to Op I/A, where you take 2 days off between each max strength day. You get stronger by recovering, not by wearing yourself down continuously.

I've been able to keep up with ice hockey goaltending twice a week and regular Op this winter, but the legs are sometimes pretty danged pissed off at me!

WallBilly wrote:The other thing that comes up here and with Rippetoe is, older lifters generally need more recovery time.

"Older" and "more" are subjective terms, of course.

I'm thinking of moving to Op I/A, where you take 2 days off between each max strength day. You get stronger by recovering, not by wearing yourself down continuously.

I've been able to keep up with ice hockey goaltending twice a week and regular Op this winter, but the legs are sometimes pretty danged pissed off at me!

I am thinking the same. I want to complete my 1st year of TB with the standard OP. It'll be over soon. I will be doing some thinking and asking advice here

PeterHealey wrote:3 day DL option. Have been using 1 rep maxes, not a training max for my lifts. Symptoms include feeling pretty wiped out/low energy, wakefulness/restlessness during the night.

What do you mean by overtraining? Overtraining seems to emcompass a pretty wide spectrum of conditions, from the lack of physical drive, all the way to "can't contract muscles to lift".

Have you had any rest between cycles or every other cycles? What about periods of active recovery?

One thing you might want to consider is accumulated fatigue. Every training session creates fatigue on your body and CNS. There's acute fatigue, and there's chronic fatigue. Some level of acute fatigue (e.g. muscular) generally recovers by your next training session. Mental and CNS fatigue tends to be chronic and requires long periods of recovery (recovery from session to session is usually insufficient) and further training session will add to further chronic fatigue.

If you've not had periods of leave from training to focus on recovery, there's a good chance you've simply got too much accumulated fatigue. If you're still able to lift heavy loads, your problem is probably fatigue management, and less so overtraining.

While I am only 28 and cannot speak for older folks recovery- a mentor of mine has been in the SOF world for 25+ years

He specifically takes 30 days off of PT every 18months? Or so to mentally and physically recover. Says it's been huge in his long term efforts.

IIRC when he takes the 30 days off he has zero structured PT except for dog walking/ riding beach cruiser or whatever life activity comes his way. Seems to have worked great for him. Some sort of extended rest is likely needed every XYZ often- I just don't know the XYZ as it's probably different for everyone- that's my take at least

PeterHealey wrote:Have been using 1 rep maxes, not a training max for my lifts.

Occam's razor....? Might want to consider taking a few days off and then restarting with a training max.

Are you on any kind of carb restricted/calorie restricted diet?

The two suggestions that I would make (also being an over 40 athlete) are 1) as suggested, consider something like Op I/A. It gives you more flexibility in terms of recovery. Now the difficulty with Op I/A (the way that I do it) is that I run it on an 8-day schedule so the issue is that I don't have a standard week (every Monday being the same, every Tuesday being the same, days off being the same day every week, etc.). But I have a home gym which allows me to workout whenever I want to. 2) Consider more regular "easy" weeks. You said that you went through the first 12 weeks feeling great. Did you take any easy weeks up in there? I have done it where I took an easy week after 6 weeks and I have done it where I have taken an easy week after 3 weeks. Both work fine, and I wouldn't hesitate to do either one again - especially if I am feeling beat up after 3 weeks.

As to what to do now, take a full week off of everything. Just go for some walks, and enjoy yourself. Then come back with a plan for managing stress, fatigue, and recovery utilizing some of the things mentioned in this thread. If you can plan these ahead of time, then you (hopefully) won't run into this issue again.

mikhou

In "The Power of When", a book about chronobiology, they talk about waiting at least 90 minutes before you have your AM coffee, doing brief exercise (a walk around the block or equivalent), cool shower, and protein/fat based meal). This allows cortisol to wake you up without the assistance of coffee, and also sends a variety of other wake the fuck up signals. Then slam down some coffee and you're off to the races.

I've been experimenting with this strategy and tend to consume less overall coffee. Also pushing coffee back allows me to have a coffee with lunch (usually beef), and coffee inhibits iron absorption, which is probably helpful for men that eat a lot of red meat and don't bleed on a regular basis.

PeterHealey wrote:Thanks Alottadav. No alcohol in 23 years so I'm set on that one. Caffiene yes, a French press every morning and 2-4 cups of black tea throughout the day. My 'naturopathic' wife tells me my adrenals need some love and caffeine abstinence would be a good beginning. Reset I will. This may also help with the restless sleep issues. Sometimes it's the obvious that is staring me in the face and I can't see it. Thanks for your input.
Bark...the idea of taking 3-4 weeks off kills me, not because of the pain of returning but I think I would be like a bear chained up if I couldn't work-out.

Jefferson wrote:In "The Power of When", a book about chronobiology, they talk about waiting at least 90 minutes before you have your AM coffee, doing brief exercise (a walk around the block or equivalent), cool shower, and protein/fat based meal). This allows cortisol to wake you up without the assistance of coffee, and also sends a variety of other wake the fuck up signals. Then slam down some coffee and you're off to the races.

I've been experimenting with this strategy and tend to consume less overall coffee. Also pushing coffee back allows me to have a coffee with lunch (usually beef), and coffee inhibits iron absorption, which is probably helpful for men that eat a lot of red meat and don't bleed on a regular basis.

PeterHealey wrote:Thanks Alottadav. No alcohol in 23 years so I'm set on that one. Caffiene yes, a French press every morning and 2-4 cups of black tea throughout the day. My 'naturopathic' wife tells me my adrenals need some love and caffeine abstinence would be a good beginning. Reset I will. This may also help with the restless sleep issues. Sometimes it's the obvious that is staring me in the face and I can't see it. Thanks for your input.
Bark...the idea of taking 3-4 weeks off kills me, not because of the pain of returning but I think I would be like a bear chained up if I couldn't work-out.

Sounds impossible with my 5AM training lifestyle

Hopefully just endurance training. Strength or anything intense that early sounds like torture. Best time to lift is 4-6pm.

Barkadion wrote:

Jefferson wrote:In "The Power of When", a book about chronobiology, they talk about waiting at least 90 minutes before you have your AM coffee, doing brief exercise (a walk around the block or equivalent), cool shower, and protein/fat based meal). This allows cortisol to wake you up without the assistance of coffee, and also sends a variety of other wake the fuck up signals. Then slam down some coffee and you're off to the races.

I've been experimenting with this strategy and tend to consume less overall coffee. Also pushing coffee back allows me to have a coffee with lunch (usually beef), and coffee inhibits iron absorption, which is probably helpful for men that eat a lot of red meat and don't bleed on a regular basis.

PeterHealey wrote:Thanks Alottadav. No alcohol in 23 years so I'm set on that one. Caffiene yes, a French press every morning and 2-4 cups of black tea throughout the day. My 'naturopathic' wife tells me my adrenals need some love and caffeine abstinence would be a good beginning. Reset I will. This may also help with the restless sleep issues. Sometimes it's the obvious that is staring me in the face and I can't see it. Thanks for your input.
Bark...the idea of taking 3-4 weeks off kills me, not because of the pain of returning but I think I would be like a bear chained up if I couldn't work-out.

Sounds impossible with my 5AM training lifestyle

Jefferson wrote:Hopefully just endurance training. Strength or anything intense that early sounds like torture. Best time to lift is 4-6pm.

Actually, both. Lifting is fine with 200mg-250mg of caffeine, creatine, and BCAA. I do enjoy LSS under 30min as well. BUT..HIC can kill me when done that early. Sleepless night with taking care of 8month twins doesn't help either. But lifting feels surprisingly good..