Technique and Strength in the Martial Arts

[DocOctagon]

Just a point, Bark's article from Starting Strength was not written by Rip. It was a guest article by some other dude named Dave Longley.

The fact that it was published on SS means that Rip endorses it, I assume.

I also have much respect for Rip, but his disdain for TB-style conditioning seems to be a flaw. He pushes the prowler occasionally, but actually makes fun of people who choose to actually, you know, run.

Rip is good within his niche, but outside of that I'd take what he says with a grain of salt. Most professional MMA fighters or combat athletes would rank conditioning higher than maximal strength when it comes to professional fighting. You can read Joel Jamieson's take on the subject in his manual Ultimate MMA Conditioning. He explains how he initially made the mistake of trying to train his UFC fighters like strength athletes but soon realized that was a flawed approach. Coming from a football S&C background (including pro NFL teams) he tried to transfer that strength and power training mentality. He pretty much came to the realization that maximal-strength training was important but not nearly as important as other facets for MMA S&C such as conditioning/energy systems. Ross Enamait promotes the same mentality...strength is good, but conditioning is king in the ring. It think it was Ross that said no loser interviewed in the ring ever said "I wish I'd benched more leading up to the match"

We all love the saying "strong people are harder to kill", but it doesn't mean squat without conditioning (pun intended). Take it from the athletes that actually step into the ring and try to kill each other lol. No one on this board (I hope) would argue that maximal-strength isn't important, but how much importance you place on it depends on what you're training for.

Here's an interesting clip that illustrates the point...Dom talks about how he only had 12 weeks to prepare for a championship fight after a 9 month layoff. Strength training was one of the first things to be sacrificed so he could bring his conditioning up to last 5 rounds. He spent the majority of his camp doing conditioning and skills/sparring. Goes to show when push comes to shove, having a massive deadlift isn't that important in the grand scheme of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vX9Q26QbHk

[Maxrip13]

Just a point, Bark's article from Starting Strength was not written by Rip. It was a guest article by some other dude named Dave Longley.

The fact that it was published on SS means that Rip endorses it, I assume.

I also have much respect for Rip, but his disdain for TB-style conditioning seems to be a flaw. He pushes the prowler occasionally, but actually makes fun of people who choose to actually, you know, run.

Rip is good within his niche, but outside of that I'd take what he says with a grain of salt. Most professional MMA fighters or combat athletes would rank conditioning higher than maximal strength when it comes to professional fighting. You can read Joel Jamieson's take on the subject in his manual Ultimate MMA Conditioning. He explains how he initially made the mistake of trying to train his UFC fighters like strength athletes but soon realized that was a flawed approach. Coming from a football S&C background (including pro NFL teams) he tried to transfer that strength and power training mentality. He pretty much came to the realization that maximal-strength training was important but not nearly as important as other facets for MMA S&C such as conditioning/energy systems. Ross Enamait promotes the same mentality...strength is good, but conditioning is king in the ring. It think it was Ross that said no loser interviewed in the ring ever said "I wish I'd benched more leading up to the match"

We all love the saying "strong people are harder to kill", but it doesn't mean squat without conditioning (pun intended). Take it from the athletes that actually step into the ring and try to kill each other lol. No one on this board (I hope) would argue that maximal-strength isn't important, but how much importance you place on it depends on what you're training for.

Here's an interesting clip that illustrates the point...Dom talks about how he only had 12 weeks to prepare for a championship fight after a 9 month layoff. Strength training was one of the first things to be sacrificed so he could bring his conditioning up to last 5 rounds. He spent the majority of his camp doing conditioning and skills/sparring. Goes to show when push comes to shove, having a massive deadlift isn't that important in the grand scheme of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vX9Q26QbHk

Dom is actually the sort of guy who could really benefit from some focused strength training.
He stays light to stay in that weight class and use that point fighter style of his.

With a bit of focused strength work to add some strength to compensate for what left of his ACLs, he might actually make it to a fight for a change.

I am making armchair assumptions of course, but i think he is done unless he either changes his style and gets stronger to actually make it to fights. He hits these awesome take downs, but he lets people straight up instead of overpowering them on the ground. I love his style but I think TJ and Cody have him worked out unless he starts capitalising on those beautiful fast take downs and bringing some wrestling top game back.

[DocOctagon]

Just a point, Bark's article from Starting Strength was not written by Rip. It was a guest article by some other dude named Dave Longley.

The fact that it was published on SS means that Rip endorses it, I assume.

I also have much respect for Rip, but his disdain for TB-style conditioning seems to be a flaw. He pushes the prowler occasionally, but actually makes fun of people who choose to actually, you know, run.

Rip is good within his niche, but outside of that I'd take what he says with a grain of salt. Most professional MMA fighters or combat athletes would rank conditioning higher than maximal strength when it comes to professional fighting. You can read Joel Jamieson's take on the subject in his manual Ultimate MMA Conditioning. He explains how he initially made the mistake of trying to train his UFC fighters like strength athletes but soon realized that was a flawed approach. Coming from a football S&C background (including pro NFL teams) he tried to transfer that strength and power training mentality. He pretty much came to the realization that maximal-strength training was important but not nearly as important as other facets for MMA S&C such as conditioning/energy systems. Ross Enamait promotes the same mentality...strength is good, but conditioning is king in the ring. It think it was Ross that said no loser interviewed in the ring ever said "I wish I'd benched more leading up to the match"

We all love the saying "strong people are harder to kill", but it doesn't mean squat without conditioning (pun intended). Take it from the athletes that actually step into the ring and try to kill each other lol. No one on this board (I hope) would argue that maximal-strength isn't important, but how much importance you place on it depends on what you're training for.

Here's an interesting clip that illustrates the point...Dom talks about how he only had 12 weeks to prepare for a championship fight after a 9 month layoff. Strength training was one of the first things to be sacrificed so he could bring his conditioning up to last 5 rounds. He spent the majority of his camp doing conditioning and skills/sparring. Goes to show when push comes to shove, having a massive deadlift isn't that important in the grand scheme of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vX9Q26QbHk

Dom is actually the sort of guy who could really benefit from some focused strength training.
He stays light to stay in that weight class and use that point fighter style of his.

With a bit of focused strength work to add some strength to compensate for what left of his ACLs, he might actually make it to a fight for a change.

I am making armchair assumptions of course, but i think he is done unless he either changes his style and gets stronger to actually make it to fights. He hits these awesome take downs, but he lets people straight up instead of overpowering them on the ground. I love his style but I think TJ and Cody have him worked out unless he starts capitalising on those beautiful fast take downs and bringing some wrestling top game back.

Dom says pretty much exactly what you're saying in the full interview.. He talks about how much better his camp (and fighting) is when he can include strength training. How the lifting makes him super resilient, prevents injuries, and ups his pain threshold when being smacked around. The point I was trying to make is when it comes to choosing one or the other, conditioning or strength training, fighters usually sacrifice the lifting. It's fascinating because a fighter like Dom probably needs it more than most relative to his peers, yet that was the first thing on the chopping block when it came down to it. Survival mode was boiled down to cardio & skills.

[DocOctagon]

Everything being equal than sure it's better to be the stronger man in a fight. Not a particularly bold or innovative stance to take....it's like saying eating less helps you lose weight. I guess I'm looking at it more from a point of view of prioritizing. I don't know that you're going to find too many high level MMA coaches prescribing 3-5 day strength protocols during training camps. Usually it's 2 a week with the bulk of time being spend on conditioning/cardio and technique...at times conditioning and technique start becoming the same thing. For more well-known examples; Ross Enamait's 50 day plan = 2 days of strength work. Joel Jamieson's 8 Weeks Out = 2 strength sessions on average. Of course this can (and should) be dialed up or down depending on the individual fighter. If strength is a particular fighter's weaknesses then it certainly needs to be shored up and given more attention.

Makes sense. Now that being said, is everyone that is currently training MA using fighter/fighter I/A as their strength template? What about Zulu? Op I/A?

Probably depends on how the rest of training and life is set up. Does your schedule make fitting in two days of strength easier than four? Do you prefer longer or shorter sessions? That being said I think Zulu with a minimalist set-up has tremendous potential and is being overlooked as a substitute for Fighter....

Day 1 Squat/Bench
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4 Squat/Bench
Day 5
Day 6 Deadlift Day
Day 7

Look at how much free time that gives you. If you need a little more throw in some bodyweight pull-ups or just include them in conditioning. If you want to go deeper, make one of your Squat days high volume (5+ sets) make the other minimal and vice versa with Bench Press.

Like Day 1 Squats x 5-10 sets, BP x 3, Day 4 Squats x 3, BP x 5-10.

As an example every once in a while I like hammering out 10 sets of Squats during a 90% session. Sets of 3 I can do all day. Not so much for the 80-85% weeks.

[Maxrip13]

Rip is good within his niche, but outside of that I'd take what he says with a grain of salt. Most professional MMA fighters or combat athletes would rank conditioning higher than maximal strength when it comes to professional fighting. You can read Joel Jamieson's take on the subject in his manual Ultimate MMA Conditioning. He explains how he initially made the mistake of trying to train his UFC fighters like strength athletes but soon realized that was a flawed approach. Coming from a football S&C background (including pro NFL teams) he tried to transfer that strength and power training mentality. He pretty much came to the realization that maximal-strength training was important but not nearly as important as other facets for MMA S&C such as conditioning/energy systems. Ross Enamait promotes the same mentality...strength is good, but conditioning is king in the ring. It think it was Ross that said no loser interviewed in the ring ever said "I wish I'd benched more leading up to the match"

We all love the saying "strong people are harder to kill", but it doesn't mean squat without conditioning (pun intended). Take it from the athletes that actually step into the ring and try to kill each other lol. No one on this board (I hope) would argue that maximal-strength isn't important, but how much importance you place on it depends on what you're training for.

Here's an interesting clip that illustrates the point...Dom talks about how he only had 12 weeks to prepare for a championship fight after a 9 month layoff. Strength training was one of the first things to be sacrificed so he could bring his conditioning up to last 5 rounds. He spent the majority of his camp doing conditioning and skills/sparring. Goes to show when push comes to shove, having a massive deadlift isn't that important in the grand scheme of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vX9Q26QbHk

Dom is actually the sort of guy who could really benefit from some focused strength training.
He stays light to stay in that weight class and use that point fighter style of his.

With a bit of focused strength work to add some strength to compensate for what left of his ACLs, he might actually make it to a fight for a change.

I am making armchair assumptions of course, but i think he is done unless he either changes his style and gets stronger to actually make it to fights. He hits these awesome take downs, but he lets people straight up instead of overpowering them on the ground. I love his style but I think TJ and Cody have him worked out unless he starts capitalising on those beautiful fast take downs and bringing some wrestling top game back.

Dom says pretty much exactly what you're saying in the full interview.. He talks about how much better his camp (and fighting) is when he can include strength training. How the lifting makes him super resilient, prevents injuries, and ups his pain threshold when being smacked around. The point I was trying to make is when it comes to choosing one or the other, conditioning or strength training, fighters usually sacrifice the lifting. It's fascinating because a fighter like Dom probably needs it more than most relative to his peers, yet that was the first thing on the chopping block when it came down to it. Survival mode was boiled down to cardio & skills.

You are definitely right in strength being dropped first before skills and cardio.

I did a 1 month bjj training camp in November last year and was doing nothing but 2 a days, eating and sleeping. I didn't bother doing any strength and conditioning while I was over there.

If I was there for 3 months then I would of added in two minimal S&C sessions. For the limited time I was better off just acquiring the skills and conditioning required to train that much.

I think it also comes down to your strength background.
I maintain close to a double bodyweight deadlift with no direct deadlift training. If I train my deadlift regularly I can peak it back to around triple bodyweight. My triple bodyweight deadlift training just leaves me tired, rundown and sore all the time. The cost/benefit ration is severely one sided. For my goals this means I barely train my favourite and best lift throughout the year. It just isn't worth it.

[Maxrip13]

Everything being equal than sure it's better to be the stronger man in a fight. Not a particularly bold or innovative stance to take....it's like saying eating less helps you lose weight. I guess I'm looking at it more from a point of view of prioritizing. I don't know that you're going to find too many high level MMA coaches prescribing 3-5 day strength protocols during training camps. Usually it's 2 a week with the bulk of time being spend on conditioning/cardio and technique...at times conditioning and technique start becoming the same thing. For more well-known examples; Ross Enamait's 50 day plan = 2 days of strength work. Joel Jamieson's 8 Weeks Out = 2 strength sessions on average. Of course this can (and should) be dialed up or down depending on the individual fighter. If strength is a particular fighter's weaknesses then it certainly needs to be shored up and given more attention.

Makes sense. Now that being said, is everyone that is currently training MA using fighter/fighter I/A as their strength template? What about Zulu? Op I/A?

Probably depends on how the rest of training and life is set up. Does your schedule make fitting in two days of strength easier than four? Do you prefer longer or shorter sessions? That being said I think Zulu with a minimalist set-up has tremendous potential and is being overlooked as a substitute for Fighter....

Day 1 Squat/Bench
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4 Squat/Bench
Day 5
Day 6 Deadlift Day
Day 7

Look at how much free time that gives you. If you need a little more throw in some bodyweight pull-ups or just include them in conditioning. If you want to go deeper, make one of your Squat days high volume (5+ sets) make the other minimal and vice versa with Bench Press.

Like Day 1 Squats x 5-10 sets, BP x 3, Day 4 Squats x 3, BP x 5-10.

As an example every once in a while I like hammering out 10 sets of Squats during a 90% session. Sets of 3 I can do all day. Not so much for the 80-85% weeks.

I plan on doing something like your cluster above once I finish my base build. Isn't it more like OP I/A though?
You have just subbed in a deadlift day for every third session.

I did something similar a while ago with Zulu, but got injured(Popped a rib at BJJ) before I could fully test it. I then went and did a BJJ training camp and never revisited it. My cluster was the following:

Day 1 Squat+Fighter Pullups
Day 2 Bench+Fighter Pullups
Day 3
Day 4 Squat+Fighter Pullups
Day 5 Bench+Fighter Pullups
Day 6
Day 7

If I did it again I would probably drop the fighter Pullup program and add in HIC or E following the session.


I feel it would pair really well with a hard sprint session on Day 1 as you have till Day 4 before you Squat again. You could also do a high volume upper body SE session on Day 2 and then be recovered by Day 5. The other option would be to push the volume in these sessions and go bare minimum on Day 4 and 5. This would all depend on skill work.

You get the frequency of fighter and can do your lifting straight before skill work. The sessions are very short and allow for heaps of flexibility.

I may actually do this following my basebuild. I feel like having a play for a month or two and strength isn't really my focus going forward. I might be able to up my mat time if I keep my sessions short. I can add some mobility work before my lifting due to the extra time I will have

Isn't it funny how things work out from a discussion. Thank you for reminding me of another way to program my strength training.

[Green2Blue]

“Strength is never a weakness.” - Mark Bell.

All else being equal, being stronger is better. I don’t have a ton of formal martial arts training. However, I do have a fair amount of real world unarmed combat experience. After the Corps I bounced at a pretty rough night club to help pay my way through college. The number of “street fights” I’ve been in is pretty close to triple digits. I’ve had guys try to stab me, fought groups, etc. I’m not a big guy, 5’8” and usually 170 +/- 10 lbs. After mindset and tactics, the biggest difference was always made by being stronger than the other guy(s). I’m not discounting technique; the more training you have the better. I know there are plenty of weaker guys out there with more training that can kick my ass. But your average hooligan doesn’t have that kind of training. Being physically dominant is HUGE in real world unarmed combat.

As a cop I’m now a defensive tactics (arrest control) instructor at my agency and at the local academy. Even after formal defensive tactics training, and experience on the street, I still think your physical condition is one of the most important factors in a hands-on engagement.

Edit: I didn’t read the whole thread. Just adding my 2c on the topic.

[godjira1]

my 2 cents on this, as a judo/bjj/submission grappling guy.

strength is good to have. all else being equal, the stronger guy will win the fight generally.
strength-endurance is key as well, because at similar technical ability and limit strength/power, the gas tank is the winner.
but technique takes the cake for the grappling martial arts (or sports if you prefer) because it increases your leverage, or effective strength/power that can be applied in any situation.

i would argue that you need to put in enough sessions to get strong enough, ie using a program that you can still devote plenty of time to "on the mat" conditioning and technique refinement.

If you are dropping mat time to get stronger, the result tends to be less useful because of the diminishing rate of strength gain once you get to the 1.5xBWT BP, 2xBWT SQ, 2-2.5xBWT DL zone. To get significantly stronger from those levels, you will need to do much more strength training, usually at the detriment of skill acquisition and conditioning. The net effect is a stagnant or even deterioration in combat ability.

I have seen guys try to come from both sides of the equation: the "technique beats all" camp and the "strength covers all flaws" camp. The correct answer is probably somewhere in the middle, somewhat nearer the technique side given a set amount of training hours/recovery resources, etc.

[J-Madd]

I think it also comes down to your strength background.
I maintain close to a double bodyweight deadlift with no direct deadlift training. If I train my deadlift regularly I can peak it back to around triple bodyweight. My triple bodyweight deadlift training just leaves me tired, rundown and sore all the time. The cost/benefit ration is severely one sided. For my goals this means I barely train my favourite and best lift throughout the year. It just isn't worth it.

I think you make a decisive point here Max, or at least this fits my experience exactly. Just using the DL as an example, when I train up on the barbell such that I can hit a 300% body weight pull, I'm pretty much good for nothing else. I can't do that and maintain any sort of serious frequency in my BJJ training, and that is also the point wherein injuries start to creep in. However, I can pretty easily stay at a level at which I'm pulling 200% of my body weight for 8-10 reps, which is more than enough for BJJ. Once you have become very strong, it's pretty easy to stay "sorta" strong. I find that a minimalist Zulu like what Doc outlines above or plain old Fighter is just fine for staying "strong enough." I also find that I do well switching between blocks of max strength (take six weeks to work-up to a 200% body-weight for 8+ reps) and kettlebell based, conditioning emphasis.

As far as the general question in this thread goes, I'm a bit reluctant to weigh in since I'm just a meager BJJ blue belt, so take this with a grain of salt. I am probably 25-30lb heavier than my instructor (a black belt), and in terms of barbells I'm much stronger. However, he submits me at will. If he wants to go 100%, I'm basically helpless. Heck, my 13 year-old son is something of a BJJ wizard, and at 135lb he can already give me a run for my money. So, yes, in my experience there is certainly a threshold at which strength is nullified by technique. Of course, BJJ black belts are outliers! That being said, when you are dealing with less disparity in skills, I find that strength can be a decisive factor to a degree that if you are really strong, you have to learn not to rely on that attribute, if you are going to learn the skills. This was (and probably still is) a difficult for me when I first started BJJ.

This too has been mentioned above, but I think one of the big benefits of strength for combat sports is resiliency. When I compare myself to other guys my age who train BJJ as often as I do, I find that I get dinged up far less than they do and in general my recovery is just a lot smoother. When I look at the factors, the only variable seems to be a long history of strength training.

[DocOctagon]

strength is good to have. all else being equal, the stronger guy will win the fight generally.

Godjira, this is a meaningless phrase. It's like saying all else being equal the guy with better conditioning wins. Or all else being equal the guy with better technique wins.
Playing Devil's advocate, but I think I'm seeing a trend in this thread where the grapplers/BJJ-ers tend to favor strength more heavily than the MMA /mixed/striking crowd. Which would make sense, as it would with wrestlers. Maybe grappling based arts benefit more from maximal-strength?