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While progressing through Mass Protocol BB I found out again that I just can't squat. I try to get the form down right but I get lower back pain almost every time. It happened before BB so it isn't exactly new to me.

The question is can I substitute anything for squats? I know squats are an awesome exercise and I would be doing them if I could.
I'm going for Grey Man after BB which has the Option of S exercises.

So for instance Day A:
Squat
Press
S Exercise of choice

What would be the best choice for a squat substitute? I am considering Goblet Squats for Squats and Dumbbell (Reverse)Lunges for S.

Also the repitions of 8, 6 and 3 at various percentages of the 1rm could be an issue because I think it's difficult to find out the 1rm for lunges. I'm not sure if the prescribed repitions are usable for goblet squats or lunges since they are made with squats in mind. I think I should be hitting higher reps in this case. Maybe a scheme of 12, 8, 6?

Any thoughts on this? Thank you.

edit: Oh and how would I incorporate chin ups into the protocol when my rep-numbers are low? Should I do sets of 8 to failure and do the remaining reps as negatives?

Have you tried front squats? I found the front squat more effective for me than the back squat due to similar issues. I still suck at squating but better at the front squat. Trap bar deadlift comes to mind but I don't know if I would change Mass Protocol at all. You might be better off running operator with trapbar deadlift and progress your pullups too.

Have you tried front squats? I found the front squat more effective for me than the back squat due to similar issues. I still suck at squating but better at the front squat. Trap bar deadlift comes to mind but I don't know if I would change Mass Protocol at all. You might be better off running operator with trapbar deadlift and progress your pullups too.

Agree with Tym on the front squats. If doing Grey Man, make one S block nothing but chinups, just do whatever reps you can but go under failure. That is if you can do 8 reps, start with doing 6,6,6. Make your other S block nothing but rows. DB or machine rows.

What is your lifting back ground and numbers?
I am guessing your overall goal is to just add general mass via TB mass ?

My advice would change if back squats are an exercise you are learning vs if you had been back squatting for years and were dealing with built up injuries.

What percentage of your 1RM do you start feeling back pain? Is it whilst squatting or the following day?
Do you have a diagnosed injury or just general pain?

You can sub exercises for back squats, but there is a reason they are a main stay in most mass focused templates. This applies across a variety of strength programs. Most include some form of heavy squatting.

What sort of gym are you training in and what equipment do you have access to?
If you were to sub in lunges, it's much easier to use dumbells to find an approximate 1RM vs a barbell. I would even consider just using a 3 RM or training max since mass gain is probably the focus over strength. That way you can stick to the TB rep ranges.

Have you done a few cycles of normal operator ?

I have similar pain When squatting. I cant front squat for shit but have found that double Kettlebell front squats and Dumbell/Kettlebell Bulgarian split squats to work well for me

Front squats
SSB squats
Box squats
Trap bar deads

Where exactly is it hurting your back? When?

Thank you all for your replies.

Maxrip13 wrote:What is your lifting back ground and numbers?

My Lifting Background is nothing to talk about really. I used to do bodyweight movements most of the time and started using a barbell seriously September 2018. Since then I wasn't able to reach higher weights because lower back pain often kicked me out and I needed some time to recover. I try to squat every now and then and try to improve my form but I almost always have butt wink and I just don't know how to get rid of it. I tried low bar, high bar, front squat. It's almost always the same.

I have a diagnosed "dead" L5 S 1 disc. It's not herniated. It's just black and flat on the MRI scan. So I guess that's what causing my issues. So I need a way to train around it. Lunges, Goblet squats to a degree and Trap Bar Deadlifts seem to be okay. My highest weight on the TDL was 75 kg x 5 at 63 kg bodyweight.

Which leads to:

Maxrip13 wrote: I am guessing your overall goal is to just add general mass via TB mass ?

My goal is to add mass because 63 kg @ 178 cm is just too skinny, right. I like the TB Books (I have all three) and I find the Mass Protocol Looks like it gets results. But again... not beaing able so squat is always an issue.

Maxrip13 wrote:Have you done a few cycles of normal operator ?

Not yet. I was thinking about it to to a few cycles of operator before Mass Protocol to add some more weight before trying to achieve some hypertrophy.

I have a touchy back (partially from a back injury I incurred while squatting) that forced me to take a lot of time off traditional squatting. If you have access to a safety squat bar I would really suggest trying something called the hand supported or safety bar split squat. I heard about this from strength and conditioning coach named Cal Dietz. Here is a link one of many videos you can find of people doing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd3eIzyBL4E and here is an article about it: https://simplifaster.com/articles/hand- ... lit-squat/

I really like it for a few reasons:
1. It allows you to keep a good back angle through the full range of of the exercise. I feel like I can basically lock in a good core/back position and it stays locked in
2. There is less weight than a heavy back squat so the overall force of your back is less
3. Because you can use your hands to support yourself, though, you can still go a lot heavier than other unilateral lower body movements, like a lunge or Bulgarian split squat

As a secondary benefit I find it easier to really use my glutes than with a back squat. Also, I feel like it is a more athletic movement than a back squat, it seems to replicate real life a lot more.

mok wrote:Thank you all for your replies.

Maxrip13 wrote:What is your lifting back ground and numbers?

My Lifting Background is nothing to talk about really. I used to do bodyweight movements most of the time and started using a barbell seriously September 2018. Since then I wasn't able to reach higher weights because lower back pain often kicked me out and I needed some time to recover. I try to squat every now and then and try to improve my form but I almost always have butt wink and I just don't know how to get rid of it. I tried low bar, high bar, front squat. It's almost always the same.

I have a diagnosed "dead" L5 S 1 disc. It's not herniated. It's just black and flat on the MRI scan. So I guess that's what causing my issues. So I need a way to train around it. Lunges, Goblet squats to a degree and Trap Bar Deadlifts seem to be okay. My highest weight on the TDL was 75 kg x 5 at 63 kg bodyweight.

Which leads to:

Maxrip13 wrote: I am guessing your overall goal is to just add general mass via TB mass ?

My goal is to add mass because 63 kg @ 178 cm is just too skinny, right. I like the TB Books (I have all three) and I find the Mass Protocol Looks like it gets results. But again... not beaing able so squat is always an issue.

Maxrip13 wrote:Have you done a few cycles of normal operator ?

Not yet. I was thinking about it to to a few cycles of operator before Mass Protocol to add some more weight before trying to achieve some hypertrophy.

A diagnosed medical condition changes my advice. If you have heavy dumbbells, I have had success with using heavy lunges in the past. I prefer dumbbells over a barbell for heavy lunges. It puts your back in a better position and you can push the weight a lot easier. Step ups are also good, but are harder to hit a 1-3RM number. I think using heavy dumbbell lunges would be a great option for you as you still get some load to the lower back and spine.

I have to say I have never heard of a dead disc? I have back issues myself and the MRI said there was a loss of space between my discs, which caused me to lose some mobility. I can still squat pain free provided I use reasonable weights and don’t go past where my body can maintain a safe position. Plenty of oly lifters squat pain free with a butt wink as a heads up. What weight does the pain start?

I also think a few cycles of operator would be great. It will build the required GPP for doing TB Mass. I have run TB for years and still struggled upping the volume to mass when I ran it. You will gain mass with Operator also provided you eat enough to support the training.

In the end you don’t have to squat it’s your training, but it’s such a great exercise for mass building.Hopefully all the replies have given you some ideas to use TB for your programming.