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thebadmattan wrote:Hello all,

I originally posted this on reddit, but I was told to hit the TB forums up as well. The unit i'm trying to get into is SOF capable, but not necessarily SOF itself.

I had a few questions regarding what my training should be consisting of for my desired profession. I'm military and I'm looking to try out for one of the advanced units in a little under 2 years. Here are some attributes personnel from the unit recommend you posses before attempting the course:

19:00 or less 3-mile run time
60-70+ push ups (until first break)
The ability to ruck for miles on unforgiving terrain with up to 60-100 lbs of gear
30 tactical pull ups with good form (not necessary but an added bonus)

The course consists of PFTs, fun runs, ruck runs, ruck marches, and plenty of other painfully long activities. That said, it also consists of 'combat conditioning' days, where conditioning is high intensity i.e. 'endless burpees', sprints, obstacle course runs etc. Question time.

1. How should my barbell lifts be looking? I understand for a course like this max strength isn't as important as SE, and E, but from my understanding, a higher squat = better load bearing capability, meaning the time under that 90 lb pack will suck a lot less. "The higher your levels of max strength, the further you'll be able to take you SE." Should I run Operator for a 8-12 months before transitioning to Fighter? A dedicated year on Operator would have my lifts refined and high, the max strength I built up in that time could pave the way for more extensive SE work.

2. How often should I be running HIC sessions? I'll need to build up the anaerobic capacity to be able to handle the high intensity work of the course. Right now I consider myself average in this area. I'm able to perform well for x amount of time, but my energy fizzes out fast and is slow to recover (a sign that my aerobic system also needs some work?).

3. When the time comes to start improving SE, should I run SE blocks or Fighter + Bangkok?

Current stats:
25 pull ups (dead hang)
20:30 3 mile run
35-40 push ups until first 'break' (chest to deck)
barbell lifts need work

Sorry for the long post, if you can any questions for me, please let them fly.

Aelian wrote:
You don't seem like you're that far off from the standards you've posted, so that's good. Rather than revamp things completely just make some adjustments in your training to address your weaknesses.

Some questions:

1. What have you been doing for strength and conditioning for the past year?
2. What does a training week currently look like for you?
3. What are your BP/SQUAT/DL #s?
4. Your domains: MS, SE, E, Work Capacity(GC), HIC; put them in order from strongest to weakest.
5. Have you read TB2 (judging by your post the answer is yes, but you never know)
6. Having read TB2, what do you intuitively think you should be doing? How should you structure your training over the next 2 years?

Aelian wrote:You're correct that improving some of your lifts will translate into better SE numbers (I'm looking at you bench press) as long as you're periodically doing some form of SE. As a serving member that's obviously not going to be an issue. You'll see an improvement in your push-up numbers as your BP climbs. Always always keep WPU in your cluster as well.

thebadmattan wrote:Hello all,

I originally posted this on reddit, but I was told to hit the TB forums up as well. The unit i'm trying to get into is SOF capable, but not necessarily SOF itself.

I had a few questions regarding what my training should be consisting of for my desired profession. I'm military and I'm looking to try out for one of the advanced units in a little under 2 years. Here are some attributes personnel from the unit recommend you posses before attempting the course:

19:00 or less 3-mile run time
60-70+ push ups (until first break)
The ability to ruck for miles on unforgiving terrain with up to 60-100 lbs of gear
30 tactical pull ups with good form (not necessary but an added bonus) What are tactical pull-ups?

1. How should my barbell lifts be looking? A good 50m target for you is the standard 2/3/4 plate goal (225 BP, 315 SQ, 405 DL. I predict you will hit those numbers much sooner than you expect. Then you can reevaluate your MS needs in light of your other stats (PT, rucking, etc.).. I understand for a course like this max strength isn't as important as SE, and E, Careful. Maybe not as "important" in terms of test numbers. And you don't want to focus on MS to the exclusion or detriment of E and SE. But performance like you describe (and, just as important, resiliency) is largely built on MS, especially as a course drags on. The brain can almost always push the body a little further and/or a little faster, but you probably can't will yourself to pick up 300lbs if your max is 250 but from my understanding, a higher squat = better load bearing capability, meaning the time under that 90 lb pack will suck a lot less. Exactly. Strong is never wrong [TM (C) close_fox publishing 2017, all rights reserved ]. You might also consider packing on some extra muscle (without hurting performance). A 100lb ruck sucks less when it's "only" half your bodyweight. It can be done at 155, but it's gonna hurt a lot more."The higher your levels of max strength, the further you'll be able to take you SE." Should I run Operator for a 8-12 months before transitioning to Fighter? A dedicated year on Operator would have my lifts refined and high, the max strength I built up in that time could pave the way for more extensive SE work.


Current stats:
25 pull ups (dead hang)
20:30 3 mile run
35-40 push ups until first 'break' (chest to deck) Maybe have someone look at your push-up form. It’s rare for someone to have only 10-15 more push-ups than pull-ups. Either way, these will come soon enough.
barbell lifts need work

You will hit your PT and run goals in the course of continuation training. Probably much sooner than you think. The rucking piece will require to you get stronger (to a point) and obviously condition your body to rucking with heavy weight.

thebadmattan wrote:

3. Rep Maxes as of FEB 2016. These are estimates based on DEC 2016 rep maxes. I removed weight to address form issues. 1 RMS -
SQ - 215
BP - 165
WPU - BW(155) + 45
DL - 225

These numbers are not bad, especially for 155lb BW and in light of your PT and running stats. I predict your weight room numbers will shoot up once you focus on lifting.

4. From strongest to weakest: MS > E > SE > HIC > Work Capacity

5. I have read TB II. I'm currently re-reading and annotating it. I did that with TB I, and I understood it a lot better the second time around and took a lot of notes. I found I was making a lot of common errors. This tells me your mind is right. Bodes well for your success in training and in the course.

6. Train today to fight tomorrow, I say. My barbell lift stats are unimpressive. I hear you, but they aren't bad.I was thinking of running SS/Operator BP/SQ/WPU until I get reasonably strong. Along with SS/Op would be the Black Professional protocol from TB II. My HICs would consists of 400/600m Resets, Apex Hills (apparently these turn men into cyborgs), BOO, Oxygen Debt 101s, these kinds of sessions. I feel I need to develop a (way) greater pain tolerance. HICs like Pepper Potting would be worked into my agenda down the line. Along with E Rucking, Pepper Potting would further build my tolerance for handling heavy loads. Around this time I'd have probably built a respectable amount of MS and transitioned from OP to Fighter. On the endurance side, I should be rolling with fun runs, ruck runs, LSS running, and ruck marches. I can commit 5/6 days a week to training.

Most people I ask tell me to prepare my body like i'm getting ready for Basic or OCS. Problem is, the course is harder than Basic, harder than OCS .... KB preaches training for what your profession calls for in TB I/II, excellent advice, I plan to do so.

Aelian wrote:You're correct that improving some of your lifts will translate into better SE numbers (I'm looking at you bench press) as long as you're periodically doing some form of SE. As a serving member that's obviously not going to be an issue. You'll see an improvement in your push-up numbers as your BP climbs. Always always keep WPU in your cluster as well.

I think you're right to go with SS in the beginning. That being said you might have to get off it sooner than the average bear because of all the conditioning you have going on in your life. When your lifts start to get heavier and you're banging them out 3 times a week near max effort (with linear you're almost always near your max), you're going to start feeling it during unit PT. When that happens beyond what you can reasonably sustain then make the switch to Op. Don't go off your lift#s when deciding on the switch, go off how the loads are integrating with your conditioning and PT. A civvy with no daily conditioning or PT requirements is going to be able to milk linear longer than you.

HIC is all well and good, but don't underestimate sheer weekly mileage when it comes to Green SO units. My advice would be to keep about 75%-80% of your conditioning in the E zone; fun-runs, runs, ruck marching. If you can incorporate hills in your E even better. The remaining 20-25% can be spent on HIC/work capacity.

To sum up (my 0.02):

Work on improving maximum strength along with subsequent conversion to SE
75%-80% of your conditioning work = E
20%-25% of your conditioning = HIC/WC

At some point in your journey after you've built up some decent levels of strength, you're going to want to dial it back a little and push the SE a little more. When that time comes something like Fighter Bangkok would be a natural fit.

It sounds like you already know this, but E isn't synonymous with LISS. After Base drop the heartrate restrictions and do things like Fartleks, hill running, longer fast tempo runs. I mention it because it seems to come up a lot, people equate E with LISS running, when in reality LISS is just one very small component of E training.

TangoZero wrote:

Aelian wrote:You're correct that improving some of your lifts will translate into better SE numbers (I'm looking at you bench press) as long as you're periodically doing some form of SE. As a serving member that's obviously not going to be an issue. You'll see an improvement in your push-up numbers as your BP climbs. Always always keep WPU in your cluster as well.

Take this for what it's worth, I've never been in the military. I'm in LE on my dept's tactical unit. But I can attest to an improvement in max-strength leading to an improvement in the ability to take one's SE numbers higher. My push-up numbers went up significantly after I got my BP to around 215-225.

close_fox wrote: My thoughts are below. I encourage you to evaluate my suggestions in light of what others say. Given that you have completed BB, I suggest you consider three blocks as follows. Then evaluate your progress and reengage.


Block 1: 12 weeks
Focus: Increase MS and HIC
Template: Black + Operator
MS: SWAT cluster BP/SQ/WPU – DL 1x/week
HICs: As identified by you above. I would run 600m Resets and Standard Issue Hills, saving Apex for later. Your call.
E (every other week): Fobbit w/ push-ups and crunches
Goals accomplished: You will be well on your way towards lifting 2/3/4 plates. 30 pull-ups accomplished. Sub-20 3-mile run.


Block 2: 12 weeks
Focus: Continue increased MS and HIC. Reintroduce E (including rucking).
Template: Black Pro + Operator
MS: SWAT cluster BP/SQ/WPU – DL 1x/week
HICs: Same. Incorporate push-ups in one HIC during weeks where E = ruck.
E: Alternate between Fobbit w/ push-ups and crunches and rucking
Goals accomplished: Very close to lifting 2/3/4 plates, if not there. Very close to 70 push-ups, maybe there. Sub-19 3-mile run accomplished.


Block 3: 9 weeks
Focus: Increase rucking ability. Increase SE. Maintain MS without hurting ruck progress.
Template: Green + Operator (or Fighter, depending how lifting affects your rucking)
MS: Grunt cluster OHP/FSQ/WPU
HICs: Now it’s Apex time! But don’t go too heavy too fast with the KBs.
Es: Ruck: Incorporate all pace, load, distance variables (slow/fast, heavy/light, long, short). Each variation sucks in its own special way, as you know. Fobbit w/ push-ups and crunches.
SE: Incorporate PFT exercises
Goals accomplished: Rucking near or at standard. 70 push-ups accomplished (if not during Block 2).

thebadmattan wrote:
Appreciate the work put into this response close_fox!
To answer your question about tactical pull ups, I meant military style, dead hang, chin over the bar for the reps to count style.
Good. "Is there another kind?" (Col Jessup voice...)
You mentioned the 2/3/4 plate goal standard as something I should be working towards, this will establish a good base level of strength for me to work with. You also mentioned MS's direct correlation to building resiliency, something of utmost importance for personnel hoping to get through this course. I also agree with you on putting on some mass, I should get up to the 165-170 range.
As for my push ups, I do them chest to deck, with my elbows tight to my body
Good to hear that i'll hit my goals in continuation, a run time around 18:30-45 has been a personal goal of mine for a while.

I read through your three block training plan, it seems like precisely what I was looking for. With Operator running for two or three blocks my MS should be respectably high. At the same time, I'll be running either Black or Black pro. for the first two blocks, I should be be leaving the 20:00 range and heading into the 19:00s. I'll follow your advice and save Apex Hills for later blocks, My thinking was SQ 3x/week + Apex is a lot of volume on your legs. Not automatically wrong, but something to consider.in the meantime I'll roll with regular hills, resets, and maybe some fasts 5s here and there. With a Fobbit interval session every other week during block one I'll start working on those push ups(/crunches). Block 2 comes around and rucking's made its way into my training. Push ups are being addressed in Fobbits, and on ruck weeks, an HIC. MS is still on the up and up.
Eventually block 3 will come along, and that I have a few questions about if you don't mind:
1. Say I'm running Op/Green. A training week would consist of 3 MS sessions of course, meaning with that conditioning would be 2 E rucks (with variables, hell yeah) and one SE session, 3 sessions total. Every other week, conditioning wise, instead of an SE session, I'd run an Apex Hill session. Is that what you had in mind? I was looking at the "Green Protocol - Standard Template" in TB2. Which looks to basically be 4 weeks of 2xMS (Fighter) and 3-4xE. Weeks 5-6 do a HIC (could be Apex) instead of one of the Es. Weeks 7-9 3xSE (I would build those SE circuits around PFT exercises + whatever PT exercises the course cadre suggest...you mentioned burpees), 2xE, 1xHIC. This seems like a good "indefinite" protocol for your course prep once you have built up the baseline MS you need. Basically cycling between hardcore ruck prep and prepping for getting smoked. While maintaining the MS you need. I'm thinking Grunt cluster would serve you best here (especially FSQ vice SQ to ensure your legs are up to the increased ruck volume.
2. Fobbits fall under E for this block, but i'm curious, where do they fit in with Op? I'm currently doing them as the E in Black Pro (30+min Fobbits...2min jog, hop off and bang out 10-20 push-ups and crunches...no pull-ups, because I get those on my MS days).
3.I do need to put on mass, but increased sets could possibly mean increased fatigue and adverse affects on my rucking in later blocks, suggestions? Eat more good calories. Maybe attempt to engage a hypertrophic response by decreasing rest intervals. That science is way beyond my expertise, but the TB books speak to it. I am personally blessed/cursed with "great" hypertrophic abilities. I have more mass than I want/need, so (per the text guidance) I have kept my RIs at 5min since I started TB. My muscles have not gotten appreciably larger. For that reason, I assume a converse strategy would work if I wanted to gain size (i.e., I would get bigger if I decreased my RIs). In my experience, gaining muscle will not slow your rucking down. The muscle you gain will "carry itself," plus more. There is a ceiling to this...diminishing returns. Obviously you don't want to be 300lbs of solid muscle and have to hump for 20 miles.

Once again thanks for the assistance, looking forward to your response.

Apologies for any typos or grammar errors, it's late, heh