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I'm going to be finishing week 2 of base building today and I'm looking toward the future for my weight training in my continuation protocol.

I'm likely going to run Operator + Black... But...my body doesn't do well with full out bench press and squatting three times a week. I was thinking of running I/A as I do have a very large history of strength training, but then I thought about it some more...

I was thinking of running something like this:

Day 1:
Bench Press
Squat
Weighted Pull-Ups

Day 3:
DB Bench or Pause Bench or Slingshot Bench
Squat
Weighted Pull-Ups

Day 5:
Deadlift
Bench Press
High Box Squat

I'm sure that won't be an issue, but just wondering if anyone has run it similarly or has any other input...

Thanks...

KShea wrote:my body doesn't do well with full out bench press and squatting three times a week.
..

I wouldn't be too hasty in deviating just yet...have you run frequent/sub-max programs like Op in the past? It's a far cry from typical intense squat or bench day on conventional programs. It might be just what your body needs. I understand where you're coming from, I had minor knee issues running 531 squat days (BBB) so was very leery about switching to Op. Took the plunge and now a couple years later I have no knee problems whatsoever....that's going from squatting heavy once a week to Op style 3x week sub-max. YMMV, my 0.02.

BlackPyjamas wrote:

KShea wrote:my body doesn't do well with full out bench press and squatting three times a week.
..

I wouldn't be too hasty in deviating just yet...have you run frequent/sub-max programs like Op in the past? It's a far cry from typical intense squat or bench day on conventional programs. It might be just what your body needs. I understand where you're coming from, I had minor knee issues running 531 squat days (BBB) so was very leery about switching to Op. Took the plunge and now a couple years later I have no knee problems whatsoever....that's going from squatting heavy once a week to Op style 3x week sub-max. YMMV, my 0.02.

Yes. I ran Vanilla Gorilla for awhile as well as GZCL, 5/3/1, Juggernaut and Westside among my own designs.

Vanilla Gorilla is most similar. 3x per week with various intensities, rotations between main and variations but touching on each of the big three each day.

KShea none of those are submaximal programs like TB. TB is set up to work a certain way and has been "tested" across a lot of people. You would be better off just using a lower TM the first time through than redesigning to make your own, untested program.

TBPenguin wrote:KShea none of those are submaximal programs like TB. TB is set up to work a certain way and has been "tested" across a lot of people. You would be better off just using a lower TM the first time through than redesigning to make your own, untested program.

That's fair. But is using variants really an untested program?

All of those programs, sans Westside, are submaximal.

KShea, I am familiar with all of those. None of them are designed to facilitate the high frequency loading of a movement. So no, none of them are like TB in this respect.

As for the variants and whether it has been tested - who knows. Probably some have had to do some variation out of necessity (gym changes during deployment?) but the success reports I've seen have all been running it pretty vanilla. I'd be inclined to first try copying what is known to work. If your concern is burnout, I think you'll be fine. If your concern is joint irritations, if you think even submax at this level (really the sets are not hard) will bother some particular joint, then that's different, you have to do something to make sure you can keep training.

Good luck with whatever way you go.

TBPenguin wrote:KShea, I am familiar with all of those. None of them are designed to facilitate the high frequency loading of a movement. So no, none of them are like TB in this respect.

As for the variants and whether it has been tested - who knows. Probably some have had to do some variation out of necessity (gym changes during deployment?) but the success reports I've seen have all been running it pretty vanilla. I'd be inclined to first try copying what is known to work. If your concern is burnout, I think you'll be fine. If your concern is joint irritations, if you think even submax at this level (really the sets are not hard) will bother some particular joint, then that's different, you have to do something to make sure you can keep training.

Good luck with whatever way you go.

x2, Penguin is right. I'm not familiar with Vanilla Gorilla but the others aren't sub max. Basically anything that has you regularly max out (like the 531 money sets) isn't, as that kind of effort will take a major toll on the rest of your training through the week.

Why not try TB as-is for a block or two first? Use a conservative training max and give it a try. I have a feeling it's going to be exactly what your body needs. You might have noticed a theme on the boards that many find squatting 3 x week (TB style) easier than just once or twice. Either way, keep us posted.

Try Zulu? It's twice a week.

Or here's something I've done with Zulu..

A1
SQ
WPU

B1
DL
BP

A2
SQ
WPU

B2
Power Clean
BP


So you'll notice on B day I didn't do DL both days. The second day I did a complimentary exercise to the DL, the power clean, to take off some off the stress of the DL. Maybe try something similar with the SQ and BP? Like

A1
SQ
WPU

B1
DL
BP

A2
FSQ
WPU

B2
DL
W Dips

Just an idea.

All excellent points.

All of those programs are sub maximal... the rep maxes at the end aren't intended to go until actual failure.

But TB got it correct. It's burnout and joint irritation that I worry about running operator. The Zulu suggestion is a good one. It will also allow me to consolidate my training to fewer sessions (not ideal, but, I only have five days a week I can train).

I'll look more into that idea.

Not sure what direction I'm going to go with the variants yet, but I sure as hell enjoyed this discussion. Thanks everyone.

KShea wrote:All excellent points.

All of those programs are sub maximal... the rep maxes at the end aren't intended to go until actual failure.

But TB got it correct. It's burnout and joint irritation that I worry about running operator. The Zulu suggestion is a good one. It will also allow me to consolidate my training to fewer sessions (not ideal, but, I only have five days a week I can train).

I'll look more into that idea.

Not sure what direction I'm going to go with the variants yet, but I sure as hell enjoyed this discussion. Thanks everyone.

KShea, have you run Base Building yet? The SE circuits along with the break from heavy MS might be of enormous benefit.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just reread your first post