Technique and Strength in the Martial Arts

[Barkadion]

Interesting..

Here is Rip:

"Strength or technique is the false dichotomy that is presented to us in the Martial Arts. The reality is that they're interdependent. When someone muscles out of your technique, it wasn't necessarily that your technique wasn't good enough, it might just be that they're stronger than you, and that's all there is to it. It's a bitter pill to swallow. You don't have to be strong to do Martial Arts – this is as true now as it was at the start of this overly long article – but in reality, we all know the truth: when skill is equal, the bigger and stronger person will win."

https://startingstrength.com/article/yi ... rtial-arts

And Jack Hatton:

"So while I am currently in Japan training, I am still sticking to the plan and developing strength in the weight room and mental strength on the mats. It’s hard work but there is comfort in that as hard work always pays off! "

http://www.fujifit.com/is-lifting-for-i ... ck-hatton/

[Tyr0331]

Interesting..

Here is Rip:

"Strength or technique is the false dichotomy that is presented to us in the Martial Arts. The reality is that they're interdependent. When someone muscles out of your technique, it wasn't necessarily that your technique wasn't good enough, it might just be that they're stronger than you, and that's all there is to it. It's a bitter pill to swallow. You don't have to be strong to do Martial Arts – this is as true now as it was at the start of this overly long article – but in reality, we all know the truth: when skill is equal, the bigger and stronger person will win."

https://startingstrength.com/article/yi ... rtial-arts

And Jack Hatton:

"So while I am currently in Japan training, I am still sticking to the plan and developing strength in the weight room and mental strength on the mats. It’s hard work but there is comfort in that as hard work always pays off! "

http://www.fujifit.com/is-lifting-for-i ... ck-hatton/

This has been a debate in BJJ for a long time but that first paragraph says it the best. I used strength for my first few years to stay alive and avoid being tapped out and it’s all I really knew from wrestling. Then once the technique started to click more and more I find myself rarely using it and usually only as a last resort. Another aspect about strength in certain martial arts is it can help you from getting injured

[Aelian]

Topic moved to S&C forum. Please keep all fitness related topics out of the Green-Blue-Black.

[DocOctagon]

Interesting..

Here is Rip:

"Strength or technique is the false dichotomy that is presented to us in the Martial Arts. The reality is that they're interdependent. When someone muscles out of your technique, it wasn't necessarily that your technique wasn't good enough, it might just be that they're stronger than you, and that's all there is to it. It's a bitter pill to swallow. You don't have to be strong to do Martial Arts – this is as true now as it was at the start of this overly long article – but in reality, we all know the truth: when skill is equal, the bigger and stronger person will win."

https://startingstrength.com/article/yi ... rtial-arts

And Jack Hatton:

"So while I am currently in Japan training, I am still sticking to the plan and developing strength in the weight room and mental strength on the mats. It’s hard work but there is comfort in that as hard work always pays off! "

http://www.fujifit.com/is-lifting-for-i ... ck-hatton/

I have much respect for Rip, but I don't think he's ever been in a fight. Strength beyond a minimal baseline doesn't play as much of a factor as conditioning (technique being equal). I'd spar a musclebound strongman with lesser cardio any day over that skinny wiry kid that has conditioning for miles. I forget who said this and I'm paraphrasing horribly; but no loser ever said "I should've worked harder on my bench before the fight". Conditioning is king.

[spemma]

Rip is being a bit narrow-sighted in saying equate for skill and the stronger person will win. That discounts flexibility, endurance, determination, will power, game plan, tactics, intelligence, etc.

With that said, I've always had the most trouble with big strong new guys, so i think strength can be a great equalizer.

There is a fetishization of technique over strength in martial arts, particularly in BJJ. In BJJ, i think it stems from Royce Gracie looking like a skinny little guy beating up these big guys, as well as the (imo inflated) folklore of Helio being weak and frail, but yet doing the same.

I think it's quite alluring to your nerdy types who are likely hard gainers. Hey, learn this martial art and you can beat anyone up, without worrying about your difficulty in gaining appreciable muscle mass. Let's face it, in the world of men, strength and size will always strike fear into the smaller and weaker.

It all depends on the relative gap of strength and skill between opponents. A good hobbyist black belt should be able to beat a new strong white belt because the white belt's skill gap relative to the black belt is far too wide for the strength gap to overcome. As that white belt closes the skill gap, the strength gap becomes a bigger factor.

In the end, strength to me is a skill like any other. Watch the highest level of BJJ and MMA and tell me they don't rely heavily on strength and power to affect a technique on a resisting opponent. Some guys in BJJ fail to accept that fact and are always preaching from the technique pulpit. Technique will not overcome all and you ignore strength work at your peril.

[spemma]

Interesting..

Here is Rip:

"Strength or technique is the false dichotomy that is presented to us in the Martial Arts. The reality is that they're interdependent. When someone muscles out of your technique, it wasn't necessarily that your technique wasn't good enough, it might just be that they're stronger than you, and that's all there is to it. It's a bitter pill to swallow. You don't have to be strong to do Martial Arts – this is as true now as it was at the start of this overly long article – but in reality, we all know the truth: when skill is equal, the bigger and stronger person will win."

https://startingstrength.com/article/yi ... rtial-arts

And Jack Hatton:

"So while I am currently in Japan training, I am still sticking to the plan and developing strength in the weight room and mental strength on the mats. It’s hard work but there is comfort in that as hard work always pays off! "

http://www.fujifit.com/is-lifting-for-i ... ck-hatton/

I have much respect for Rip, but I don't think he's ever been in a fight. Strength beyond a minimal baseline doesn't play as much of a factor as conditioning (technique being equal). I'd spar a musclebound strongman with lesser cardio any day over that skinny wiry kid that has conditioning for miles. I forget who said this and I'm paraphrasing horribly; but no loser ever said "I should've worked harder on my bench before the fight". Conditioning is king.

Reminds me of "fatigue makes cowards of men"

[Tom28]

The Starting Strength article was great, thanks for linking it. To me, the article is perfectly in line with the Tactical Barbell philosophy which allows for strength progression via a template like operator or fighter while at that same time pursuing a martial art.

[grouchyjarhead]

I trained in traditional Goju Ryu for a while when I was in the Marine Corps. We typically did two hour classes, with the first half being hojo undo ("supplementary exercise") and body conditioning. We would use a variety of tools to strengthen and develop our bodies, then the second half was training the basics, learning kata, and application in either drills or sparring. The Okinawans knew long ago that strength was an important part of the fighting equation, and they got that from the Chinese who got it from the Hindu wrestlers who got it from... who knows. But being stronger than the other guy is always a benefit no matter what system you train in.

[Barkadion]

Topic moved to S&C forum. Please keep all fitness related topics out of the Green-Blue-Black.

I have put it under S&C initially myself. Moved afterwards. Sorry for confusion..

[Tyr0331]

Rip is being a bit narrow-sighted in saying equate for skill and the stronger person will win. That discounts flexibility, endurance, determination, will power, game plan, tactics, intelligence, etc.

With that said, I've always had the most trouble with big strong new guys, so i think strength can be a great equalizer.

There is a fetishization of technique over strength in martial arts, particularly in BJJ. In BJJ, i think it stems from Royce Gracie looking like a skinny little guy beating up these big guys, as well as the (imo inflated) folklore of Helio being weak and frail, but yet doing the same.

I think it's quite alluring to your nerdy types who are likely hard gainers. Hey, learn this martial art and you can beat anyone up, without worrying about your difficulty in gaining appreciable muscle mass. Let's face it, in the world of men, strength and size will always strike fear into the smaller and weaker.

It all depends on the relative gap of strength and skill between opponents. A good hobbyist black belt should be able to beat a new strong white belt because the white belt's skill gap relative to the black belt is far too wide for the strength gap to overcome. As that white belt closes the skill gap, the strength gap becomes a bigger factor.

In the end, strength to me is a skill like any other. Watch the highest level of BJJ and MMA and tell me they don't rely heavily on strength and power to affect a technique on a resisting opponent. Some guys in BJJ fail to accept that fact and are always preaching from the technique pulpit. Technique will not overcome all and you ignore strength work at your peril.

Just to add on this. Andre Galvao or Marcus Buchecha are good examples of what high level BJJ+strength can accomplish. And just because some guys like Royce Gracie didn’t appear to be as strong, he was still strong as shit. Those guys are brought up to fight. All those years of grappling since they were kids

Wrestling seems to be the most effective ground game for a lot of MMA guys right now and it’s very strength and power based. Some guys can use their BJJ very effectively in MMA like Demian Maia but wrestling seems to be used a lot more often. Don’t get me wrong I believe in BJJ and do think it will get you out of a bad situation. But when strikes are being thrown, fighting off your back doesn’t seem as appealing and you try to explode out of there as quickly as possible. I personally don’t worry about using all my strength in that situation