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I think this has been discussed before but I can't easily find it. I want to do a martial art that would help as a LEO. My choices that I have narrowed it down to based off of my location are Krav Maga, Muay Thai and BJJ.

The Krav Maga seems good but the clients are mostly high schoolers and sparring is separate. I think MT might be the best in my opinion, but BJJ seems to be popular.

I guess it comes down to should I pick a striking vs a grappling/ground art for LEO work?

The answer is bjj. Nothing prepares you better as an LEO.

Things like kimuras, knee rides and gift wraps are how you handcuff offenders safely without injury to yourself and them.
Bjj takedowns with some judo mixed in is better than wrestling. You can’t shoot on pavement safely.
Krav Maga or Muay Thai look bad and will get you sued.

Bjj is the answer with some boxing sparring on the side. The boxing is to just to get used to being hit and could literally be an mma guy at the bjj gym to spar with occasionally.

I train at a sport school and just base my game off what keeps me safe at work.

That's helpful advice. I'm still ignorant about it, but I assumed you you wouldn't want to work the ground unless it's survival or getting back to your feet. I pretty much ruled out the Krav, I feel like it is glorified MCMAP with good marketing. The Muay Thai has my attention because it seems like it incorporates almost everything, including frequent sparring.

Maxrip brings up excellent points, especially in terms of optics. My personal preference is Muay Thai, with a minimal amount of grappling to deal with anything that ends up on the ground. Your specific tasking might affect your preference. I spent my formative years in a filthy zone on footbeat, where the last thing I wanted to do was wrestle with crackheads or end up on the ground (needles, general dirtiness, HIV/hep c, multiple subjects aka "1+1 rule"). I'm no BJJ expert by any stretch, but rolling with a rat may give him access to the tools on your belt (firearm/baton/oc) while you're busy trying to submit or immobilize him. I saw a jits guy on my tac unit demonstrate this very thing. He was effortlessly stripping equipment off his opponents' duty belts. Again, I'm no expert so I'm sure there's ways to defend or train this, if Maxrip or others can chime in here.

I've used basic MT kicks, elbows, knees & what-have-you with success in several encounters. A well placed kick can be like using an extended range baton or baseball bat. Another consideration is back-up. If I get the feeling it's going to be that kind of encounter, I'll have them start rolling my way....if I'm in-close wrestling with a bad guy, it's going to limit actions my cover can take upon arrival in terms of using other tools like CEW, OC, less lethal/lethal. These days you also need to think twice about the skill level of your opponent and his physical state vs your own. I was always tired (shift work), and wearing gear; vest, belt, tools. You might be squaring off with a fresh, well rested 20 year old that's also a highly ranked BJJ practitioner. So much more common these days. Nope, distance is my best friend in any potentially violent encounter. At some point you will have to go hands on, but a couple well placed strikes can make a combative individual more compliant to being cuffed ime.

I think sparring is important regardless of whatever training style you decide to take. Training BJJ without simultaneously learning to take punches or strikes changes the game....getting hit in the face while in the guard might immobilize you or throw you off if you don't experience it in training. I'm pretty sure there are BJJ schools out there that incorporate striking and sparring anyway, but not sure.

Anyway, just my .02!

BlackPyjamas wrote:Maxrip brings up excellent points, especially in terms of optics. My personal preference is Muay Thai, with a minimal amount of grappling to deal with anything that ends up on the ground. Your specific tasking might affect your preference. I spent my formative years in a filthy zone on footbeat, where the last thing I wanted to do was wrestle with crackheads or end up on the ground (needles, general dirtiness, HIV/hep c, multiple subjects aka "1+1 rule"). I'm no BJJ expert by any stretch, but rolling with a rat may give him access to the tools on your belt (firearm/baton/oc) while you're busy trying to submit or immobilize him. I saw a jits guy on my tac unit demonstrate this very thing. He was effortlessly stripping equipment off his opponents' duty belts. Again, I'm no expert so I'm sure there's ways to defend or train this, if Maxrip or others can chime in here.

I've used basic MT kicks, elbows, knees & what-have-you with success in several encounters. A well placed kick can be like using an extended range baton or baseball bat. Another consideration is back-up. If I get the feeling it's going to be that kind of encounter, I'll have them start rolling my way....if I'm in-close wrestling with a bad guy, it's going to limit actions my cover can take upon arrival in terms of using other tools like CEW, OC, less lethal/lethal. These days you also need to think twice about the skill level of your opponent and his physical state vs your own. I was always tired (shift work), and wearing gear; vest, belt, tools. You might be squaring off with a fresh, well rested 20 year old that's also a highly ranked BJJ practitioner. So much more common these days. Nope, distance is my best friend in any potentially violent encounter. At some point you will have to go hands on, but a couple well placed strikes can make a combative individual more compliant to being cuffed ime.

I think sparring is important regardless of whatever training style you decide to take. Training BJJ without simultaneously learning to take punches or strikes changes the game....getting hit in the face while in the guard might immobilize you or throw you off if you don't experience it in training. I'm pretty sure there are BJJ schools out there that incorporate striking and sparring anyway, but not sure.

Anyway, just my .02!

Most of my violent arrests involve a short wrestle with the offender/s. The others involved the offender/s effected by OC and me copping secondary in the wrestle. I personally haven’t thrown any strikes on the job. That is why I am biased towards bjj. In the end you need to get the cuffs on them to effect an arrest. Bjj helps the most with this in my opinion.

Defintely not wrong with offenders gaining access to tac options though. I have had my firearm grabbed and wouldn’t be going for triangles or armbars on the concrete.
I have a sweep heavy bottom game and head and arm control based top game to combat this. I Purposefully work from crap positions when I train to work on escaping against different body types.

The correct answer is do everything haha. I grew up with a Muay Thai background and have used takedowns taught from that. I have also used boxing footwork and have offenders give up after I slipped a few punches. Bjj was used in every situation hence my bias.

Maxrip13 wrote:

BlackPyjamas wrote:Maxrip brings up excellent points, especially in terms of optics. My personal preference is Muay Thai, with a minimal amount of grappling to deal with anything that ends up on the ground. Your specific tasking might affect your preference. I spent my formative years in a filthy zone on footbeat, where the last thing I wanted to do was wrestle with crackheads or end up on the ground (needles, general dirtiness, HIV/hep c, multiple subjects aka "1+1 rule"). I'm no BJJ expert by any stretch, but rolling with a rat may give him access to the tools on your belt (firearm/baton/oc) while you're busy trying to submit or immobilize him. I saw a jits guy on my tac unit demonstrate this very thing. He was effortlessly stripping equipment off his opponents' duty belts. Again, I'm no expert so I'm sure there's ways to defend or train this, if Maxrip or others can chime in here.

I've used basic MT kicks, elbows, knees & what-have-you with success in several encounters. A well placed kick can be like using an extended range baton or baseball bat. Another consideration is back-up. If I get the feeling it's going to be that kind of encounter, I'll have them start rolling my way....if I'm in-close wrestling with a bad guy, it's going to limit actions my cover can take upon arrival in terms of using other tools like CEW, OC, less lethal/lethal. These days you also need to think twice about the skill level of your opponent and his physical state vs your own. I was always tired (shift work), and wearing gear; vest, belt, tools. You might be squaring off with a fresh, well rested 20 year old that's also a highly ranked BJJ practitioner. So much more common these days. Nope, distance is my best friend in any potentially violent encounter. At some point you will have to go hands on, but a couple well placed strikes can make a combative individual more compliant to being cuffed ime.

I think sparring is important regardless of whatever training style you decide to take. Training BJJ without simultaneously learning to take punches or strikes changes the game....getting hit in the face while in the guard might immobilize you or throw you off if you don't experience it in training. I'm pretty sure there are BJJ schools out there that incorporate striking and sparring anyway, but not sure.

Anyway, just my .02!

Most of my violent arrests involve a short wrestle with the offender/s. The others involved the offender/s effected by OC and me copping secondary in the wrestle. I personally haven’t thrown any strikes on the job. That is why I am biased towards bjj. In the end you need to get the cuffs on them to effect an arrest. Bjj helps the most with this in my opinion.

Defintely not wrong with offenders gaining access to tac options though. I have had my firearm grabbed and wouldn’t be going for triangles or armbars on the concrete.
I have a sweep heavy bottom game and head and arm control based top game to combat this. I Purposefully work from crap positions when I train to work on escaping against different body types.

The correct answer is do everything haha. I grew up with a Muay Thai background and have used takedowns taught from that. I have also used boxing footwork and have offenders give up after I slipped a few punches. Bjj was used in every situation hence my bias.

Just wanted to make the same point. I'm not a police officer but a jail guard so we use handcuffs quite often. That's one of the reasons why I'm quite interested in starting BJJ training.

ectional wrote:

Maxrip13 wrote:

BlackPyjamas wrote:Maxrip brings up excellent points, especially in terms of optics. My personal preference is Muay Thai, with a minimal amount of grappling to deal with anything that ends up on the ground. Your specific tasking might affect your preference. I spent my formative years in a filthy zone on footbeat, where the last thing I wanted to do was wrestle with crackheads or end up on the ground (needles, general dirtiness, HIV/hep c, multiple subjects aka "1+1 rule"). I'm no BJJ expert by any stretch, but rolling with a rat may give him access to the tools on your belt (firearm/baton/oc) while you're busy trying to submit or immobilize him. I saw a jits guy on my tac unit demonstrate this very thing. He was effortlessly stripping equipment off his opponents' duty belts. Again, I'm no expert so I'm sure there's ways to defend or train this, if Maxrip or others can chime in here.

I've used basic MT kicks, elbows, knees & what-have-you with success in several encounters. A well placed kick can be like using an extended range baton or baseball bat. Another consideration is back-up. If I get the feeling it's going to be that kind of encounter, I'll have them start rolling my way....if I'm in-close wrestling with a bad guy, it's going to limit actions my cover can take upon arrival in terms of using other tools like CEW, OC, less lethal/lethal. These days you also need to think twice about the skill level of your opponent and his physical state vs your own. I was always tired (shift work), and wearing gear; vest, belt, tools. You might be squaring off with a fresh, well rested 20 year old that's also a highly ranked BJJ practitioner. So much more common these days. Nope, distance is my best friend in any potentially violent encounter. At some point you will have to go hands on, but a couple well placed strikes can make a combative individual more compliant to being cuffed ime.

I think sparring is important regardless of whatever training style you decide to take. Training BJJ without simultaneously learning to take punches or strikes changes the game....getting hit in the face while in the guard might immobilize you or throw you off if you don't experience it in training. I'm pretty sure there are BJJ schools out there that incorporate striking and sparring anyway, but not sure.

Anyway, just my .02!

Most of my violent arrests involve a short wrestle with the offender/s. The others involved the offender/s effected by OC and me copping secondary in the wrestle. I personally haven’t thrown any strikes on the job. That is why I am biased towards bjj. In the end you need to get the cuffs on them to effect an arrest. Bjj helps the most with this in my opinion.

Defintely not wrong with offenders gaining access to tac options though. I have had my firearm grabbed and wouldn’t be going for triangles or armbars on the concrete.
I have a sweep heavy bottom game and head and arm control based top game to combat this. I Purposefully work from crap positions when I train to work on escaping against different body types.

The correct answer is do everything haha. I grew up with a Muay Thai background and have used takedowns taught from that. I have also used boxing footwork and have offenders give up after I slipped a few punches. Bjj was used in every situation hence my bias.

Just wanted to make the same point. I'm not a police officer but a jail guard so we use handcuffs quite often. That's one of the reasons why I'm quite interested in starting BJJ training.

It's definitely worth doing. Don't get me wrong I would rather not grapple with someone if possible, but there are cameras everywhere and it look better wrestling someone than dropping them with a good uppercut.

What BJJ also teaches you is how far you can push a joint before injury. One thing I notice is non trained people wrench a shoulder too far when cuffing. All that happens is the person resists and fights because the body naturally makes them. I put the shoulder into a position at the end of their range of motion but not pain and it allows me to overpower much stronger people. if they move it hurts, but if they just let me put the cuffs on it's just 30 secs of discomfit. Admittedly some people will just fight regardless.

I am not trying to hurt people, just arrest them with the minimal force necessary. I want them to deal with me well the next time I have a run in with them after they inevitably get let out.

This is all great advice. I think I'm going to go ahead with the MT because of the value (price) and getting used to taking some strikes. I'll definitely be revisiting BJJ soon though. Hopefully I'll get some local recommendations on where to train too.

When I first got into law enforcement, I had a background in striking (boxing and Kyokushinkai primarily). I then began training in Judo. I have used Judo principles and techniques far more than strikes during my time. I have only had to punch two people and I can count on my hands how many times I have used a knee strike or a leg kick. With rare exception the Judo has served me well on every force incident I've been involved with. So out of those choices, BJJ would be the best bet - just make sure you don't fall into the trap of some BJJ gyms where takedowns get neglected. As one of my Judo instructors was fond of saying, "the biggest fist you can hit someone with is planet Earth." You can take a lot of wind out of someone's sail by taking them down hard onto the ground.

grouchyjarhead wrote:When I first got into law enforcement, I had a background in striking (boxing and Kyokushinkai primarily). I then began training in Judo. I have used Judo principles and techniques far more than strikes during my time. I have only had to punch two people and I can count on my hands how many times I have used a knee strike or a leg kick. With rare exception the Judo has served me well on every force incident I've been involved with. So out of those choices, BJJ would be the best bet - just make sure you don't fall into the trap of some BJJ gyms where takedowns get neglected. As one of my Judo instructors was fond of saying, "the biggest fist you can hit someone with is planet Earth." You can take a lot of wind out of someone's sail by taking them down hard onto the ground.

I wish I had started judo as a kid. It is so effective, but takes a long time to learn properly. You are defintely right in a well executed throw taking the wind out of someone.
I used to think no gi was the way to go, but I have come around to training in a gi. It’s winter here right now and jackets work just like a gi for takedowns and controlling people.