TB Op and 5/3/1

[29bearcat]

I have officially been running TB operator for 1 year. I have increased my strength and added some hard earned muscle over that time. I am happy with the results and plan to run it for another 6 months to a year. After that, I think I would like to mix it up a bit and try something else for a year or so then back to Op or fighter.

I started looking at the popular workout 5/3/1. I know 5/3/1 has a lot of various templates that you can chose from, but from a glance they look like they follow a somewhat similar template of waved periodization.

My question is, for people who have run both what did you like about 5/3/1 compared to TB Op, and what didn't you like.

[J-Madd]

[quote="29bearcat"][/quote]

First, let me say that 531 is great. I ran it for a number of years and had good results, especially for my DL. One thing to note up front is that Operator and 531, though they both work on principles of periodization, are actually very different programs. The origins and intents are very different (though I should let KB speak to that!): 531 is a development of a powerlifting program, whereas Operator is designed for multi-dimensions athletes. Operator operates (pun intended!) by principles of lower volume (within single sessions) spread out over higher frequency training sessions. It's lots of "easy" work done very often. Most versions of 531 will have you attack a lift once every 7-10 days (which is very typical of American powerlifting programs), but you will push hard in that single session (usually working for a rep max). For 531 to work, you need to push to near failure, whereas in Operator you should never be close failure.

Though I like 531, it posed a dilemma for me down the stretch. One the one hand, doing the rep maxes (even leaving 1-2 reps in the tank) really started to beat me down (especially on the SQ and DL). On the other hand, doing just the required reps for the 531 basic scheme isn't nearly enough volume, unless you up the frequency quite a bit, which means you are basically doing Operator!

Now, getting beat up with the rep maxes might have a lot to do with my age (I was in mid-late thirties when I was doing 531), the amount of weight I was moving (I was pretty advanced powerlifter prior to taking up Wendler), or just my being a wuss, but it got to be a (very painful!) problem for me. In the end, I got to the point that I could only handle some of Wendler's two days/week schemes.

[BlackPyjamas]

As a "tactical athlete" with a relatively strenuous conditioning load, there's two ways to do 531 in my eyes:

"I'm not doing shit", just the main lifts (bp, sq, mp, dl)
Full blown 531 including a nice cluster of accessory lifts (like "Boring But Big", Triumvirate,)

"I'm not doing shit" has very little volume. As a tactical athlete this was the comfortable option, but unfortunately it wasn't very effective ime.You do each lift only once a week for 3 sets. Other than my deadlift I didn't improve on anything. Contrast that with Op where each lift is hit 3 x week for a minimum of 3 sets every time. ymmv.

Full blown 531 works considerably better than "I'm not doing shit" but you have to take on all the accessory work.....and it's done high rep high volume style, the goal being mostly hypertrophy. That brings all the problems associated with hypertrophy trg, including soreness, muscle failure, fatigue. Doing cardio or conditioning the day after was a slog. Totally interfered and slowed down my conditioning progress.

With Op, I get the best of both worlds, volume and frequency on the compounds, (enough to keep getting stronger from block to block) & no soreness or interference with cardio.

Fleshed out/full blown 531 and Op are both awesome programs, you just have to pick one that aligns with your goals. If you're not too concerned with conditioning, and you like accessory work gymrat-style, then 531 is a solid choice.

[Maxrip13]

What is your goal with the switch up?
The guys above have explained the two different programs, but i would like to know why you want to change things.

I regularly step outside tactical barbell, but i always find myself coming back.

[TangoZero]

Though I like 531, it posed a dilemma for me down the stretch. One the one hand, doing the rep maxes (even leaving 1-2 reps in the tank) really started to beat me down (especially on the SQ and DL). On the other hand, doing just the required reps for the 531 basic scheme isn't nearly enough volume, unless you up the frequency quite a bit, which means you are basically doing Operator!

This pretty much sums it up for me.

[29bearcat]

I am just curious about 5/3/1 and the pros and cons. Thanks for the opinions, they confirm kinda what I was thinking/feeling. 5/3/1 would have been great in my 20's, but in my 40's I am not really willing to take the pounding of the joints and the time commitment in the gym. I am still reading the 5/3/1 book seeing what info I can gleam from it.

TB op has been great for me so far. It has really fit my goals and I love I don't have to kill it when I come off a tough shift. Just put in the work, not go all out until failure.

I have noticed a big difference doing a few extra sets on the 70% and 75% weeks. I like the workout, so I doubt I will change until I hit the lifts I want. Then its most likely off to fighter.

Off topic. I have to go back and look, but I just started doing 7 sets (7 x 5) on the lighter weeks (70% & 75%). Do any of you go past a 5 x 5 on the 80% and 85% weeks? Just wondering.

[Maxrip13]

I am just curious about 5/3/1 and the pros and cons. Thanks for the opinions, they confirm kinda what I was thinking/feeling. 5/3/1 would have been great in my 20's, but in my 40's I am not really willing to take the pounding of the joints and the time commitment in the gym. I am still reading the 5/3/1 book seeing what info I can gleam from it.

TB op has been great for me so far. It has really fit my goals and I love I don't have to kill it when I come off a tough shift. Just put in the work, not go all out until failure.

I have noticed a big difference doing a few extra sets on the 70% and 75% weeks. I like the workout, so I doubt I will change until I hit the lifts I want. Then its most likely off to fighter.

Off topic. I have to go back and look, but I just started doing 7 sets (7 x 5) on the lighter weeks (70% & 75%). Do any of you go past a 5 x 5 on the 80% and 85% weeks? Just wondering.

5/3/1 is a great long term program and there is nothing wrong with it for an experienced lifter at all. You have already shown you can commit to a program long term by training for a year. This means it would actually be an alright fit for you. 5/3/1 was created by a west side powerlifter who wanted to be able to stay strong without training like an elite powerlifter anymore. It is a great fit for someone who likes to work in the gym and has some good experience behind them. It is definitely a long term program if you want to see any results though. I am talking a year plus.

Can I ask what your lifts and bodyweight are mate? I can tell you right now that 5x5 at 85% of your 1RM is absolutely brutal and difficult to recover from when you are hitting 2x BW +in your lifts. If you want to add sets over 5 look into OP I/A. In my opinion it's the best program from the Tactical Barbell books when combined with sports or conditioning.

Just remember that more is not always better, but if lifting is all you are doing you can definitely get away with adding more sets.

[29bearcat]

Can I ask what your lifts and bodyweight are mate? I can tell you right now that 5x5 at 85% of your 1RM is absolutely brutal and difficult to recover from when you are hitting 2x BW +in your lifts. If you want to add sets over 5 look into OP I/A. In my opinion it's the best program from the Tactical Barbell books when combined with sports or conditioning.

I have never had much natural strength, so I am not anywhere near that. This is probably the first time I have ever done a structured workout for any length of time. Most of the time I would hit it too hard, going to failure WAY to often and injure myself. The concept of practicing strength was a hard concept at first, but it really fits my long term goals and work schedule etc.

I am 6'2" 215 lbs. I'd ballpark my BP is 275 and DL 390.

[jzt]

I literally never understood the logic behind 5/3/1. I've ran it myself a few times, but it doesn't work.

Training at 1+, 3+ or 5+ means going all out on the last set, which can be insanely mentally taxing, specially when done 3-4x / week.
Frequency is also very low, training lower body 2x and upper body 2x.
The part I disliked the most is the lack of pulling (yes I know you have chin ups and rows on upper body days, but they arent main lifts).
3 lifts, done 3x week with one pull, one push and one lower makes way more sense from an athlete's point of view.

5/3/1 is great if you're into powerlifting.

[godjira1]

I found that 5/3/1 personally works very well for me, especially on the DL. I basically did it with a minimalist cluster - DL + OHP OR BP, and did each lift 2x in a week. Ie I finish a cycle in 2 weeks rather than 4.

I didn't do AMRAP sets, just as prescribed, and on the 5/3/1+ day I allowed myself to go for a few joker singles that's it. For the upper body lifts I usually went for the first set last but I'll admit it didn't seem to work as well as with the DL.

Your mileage might vary, and I actually think it fits quite well into a "Athlete who lifts" program if you choose the sensible templates.

Oddly enough, TB as a template I struggled with more from a psychologically POV - I just HATE sets across. There is something about it that just turns me off, but this is clearly just personal.