SE to address Weakness with Knee joints (BB)

[TBPenguin]

TBPenguin, I see what you mean about BSSQ and Goblets working the same muscle chains. You're saying I need an exercise, such as RDLs, to address the hamstrings and posterior chain directly as BSSQ focus more on the quads and less on the hamstrings. Would KB Swings or Back extensions address similar goals as well?

Either could be used. I think that doing the high reps in later weeks of SE with swings is probably going to result in the reps getting worse and worse, and not knowing your strength levels, those can be pretty hard with back extensions. I suggested the RDLs because you can do them light like you need in SE, even using DBs or KBs, and keep the form all the way through. But any could be used and any would offer you a less redundancy than the goblets.

[CD51]

I guess I tend to simplify things a bit... why do you think your knee is unstable? From your original post it seems like you knee started to cave because the weight your were squaring was too heavy for you to squat propoerly. You strained something in your knee and gave it some time heal and now have regained full ROM.
To me instability is a result of a mechanical defect. My right shoulder is not stable because of rotator cuff and tendon injuries. It will sublex at night if I roll to my right side. My knees buckle if I try to squat over 400 because I'm not strong enough to squat over 400. That's a strength issue not a mechanical defect.
Does this sound more like what your experiencing?

[ARLOG2017]

I guess I tend to simplify things a bit... why do you think your knee is unstable? From your original post it seems like you knee started to cave because the weight your were squaring was too heavy for you to squat propoerly. You strained something in your knee and gave it some time heal and now have regained full ROM.
To me instability is a result of a mechanical defect. My right shoulder is not stable because of rotator cuff and tendon injuries. It will sublex at night if I roll to my right side. My knees buckle if I try to squat over 400 because I'm not strong enough to squat over 400. That's a strength issue not a mechanical defect.
Does this sound more like what your experiencing?

Not quite like what I'm experiencing. It's more an issue of pulling on my knee cap from my quads which results in pain under the kneecap and a bit of instability (i.e. I would go into a lunge with my right knee and my left wouldn't be able to support the form). At this point it's fairly healed up, but I need to work on overall strength and balance of both knees.

I just moved OCONUS, so reception is spotty. I should be creating my log this week.

[WallBilly]

I guess I tend to simplify things a bit... why do you think your knee is unstable? From your original post it seems like you knee started to cave because the weight your were squaring was too heavy for you to squat propoerly. You strained something in your knee and gave it some time heal and now have regained full ROM.
To me instability is a result of a mechanical defect. My right shoulder is not stable because of rotator cuff and tendon injuries. It will sublex at night if I roll to my right side. My knees buckle if I try to squat over 400 because I'm not strong enough to squat over 400. That's a strength issue not a mechanical defect.
Does this sound more like what your experiencing?

Not quite like what I'm experiencing. It's more an issue of pulling on my knee cap from my quads which results in pain under the kneecap and a bit of instability (i.e. I would go into a lunge with my right knee and my left wouldn't be able to support the form). At this point it's fairly healed up, but I need to work on overall strength and balance of both knees.

I just moved OCONUS, so reception is spotty. I should be creating my log this week.

If you're going into a lunge on a back squat, this may be your problem. At heavier weights, that's gonna' be terrible for the knees.

I found the 4 key form issues in the back squat are as follows. Doing this actually improves my knee health and strength, and takes away all the pain during every aspect of my life including sports:

1. Squat to parallel. The top of the thigh needs to be parallel or a little deeper. If you can't get this depth, you are not getting the benefits in your hamstrings and glutes, and you are probably using too much weight, which will hurt the knees.

2. Don't "lunge" or make a scissors with your legs. The knee should not go further than the toes at the bottom of the lift, or maybe a tiny bit further. The shins stay fairly vertical, maybe 70 degrees to the floor.

3. Bar should stay over mid-foot, straight up and down, for the entire motion.

4. No matter what foot angle you prefer, the knee should point in the same direction as the foot at the bottom of the lift. I prefer 35-45 degrees, so my knees flare out at about that angle during the squat.

Like I said, when I do all this stuff properly, I have no knee pain at all (or hip or back pain). I'm 55 and am pretty active in sports. I run quite a bit and play goalie in ice hockey, both of which are torture on the knees and hips, but the squats and deads allow me to stay in the game.

Of course, you could have an injury. Or form issues. It is not uncommon for poor form issues in the squat to lead to injuries.

[BlackPyjamas]

I guess I tend to simplify things a bit... why do you think your knee is unstable? From your original post it seems like you knee started to cave because the weight your were squaring was too heavy for you to squat propoerly. You strained something in your knee and gave it some time heal and now have regained full ROM.
To me instability is a result of a mechanical defect. My right shoulder is not stable because of rotator cuff and tendon injuries. It will sublex at night if I roll to my right side. My knees buckle if I try to squat over 400 because I'm not strong enough to squat over 400. That's a strength issue not a mechanical defect.
Does this sound more like what your experiencing?

Not quite like what I'm experiencing. It's more an issue of pulling on my knee cap from my quads which results in pain under the kneecap and a bit of instability (i.e. I would go into a lunge with my right knee and my left wouldn't be able to support the form). At this point it's fairly healed up, but I need to work on overall strength and balance of both knees.

I just moved OCONUS, so reception is spotty. I should be creating my log this week.

If you're going into a lunge on a back squat, this may be your problem. At heavier weights, that's gonna' be terrible for the knees.

I found the 4 key form issues in the back squat are as follows. Doing this actually improves my knee health and strength, and takes away all the pain during every aspect of my life including sports:

1. Squat to parallel. The top of the thigh needs to be parallel or a little deeper. If you can't get this depth, you are not getting the benefits in your hamstrings and glutes, and you are probably using too much weight, which will hurt the knees.

2. Don't "lunge" or make a scissors with your legs. The knee should not go further than the toes at the bottom of the lift, or maybe a tiny bit further. The shins stay fairly vertical, maybe 70 degrees to the floor.

3. Bar should stay over mid-foot, straight up and down, for the entire motion.

4. No matter what foot angle you prefer, the knee should point in the same direction as the foot at the bottom of the lift. I prefer 35-45 degrees, so my knees flare out at about that angle during the squat.

Like I said, when I do all this stuff properly, I have no knee pain at all (or hip or back pain). I'm 55 and am pretty active in sports. I run quite a bit and play goalie in ice hockey, both of which are torture on the knees and hips, but the squats and deads allow me to stay in the game.

Of course, you could have an injury. Or form issues. It is not uncommon for poor form issues in the squat to lead to injuries.

Awesome post @wallbilly.

[ARLOG2017]

I guess I tend to simplify things a bit... why do you think your knee is unstable? From your original post it seems like you knee started to cave because the weight your were squaring was too heavy for you to squat propoerly. You strained something in your knee and gave it some time heal and now have regained full ROM.
To me instability is a result of a mechanical defect. My right shoulder is not stable because of rotator cuff and tendon injuries. It will sublex at night if I roll to my right side. My knees buckle if I try to squat over 400 because I'm not strong enough to squat over 400. That's a strength issue not a mechanical defect.
Does this sound more like what your experiencing?

Not quite like what I'm experiencing. It's more an issue of pulling on my knee cap from my quads which results in pain under the kneecap and a bit of instability (i.e. I would go into a lunge with my right knee and my left wouldn't be able to support the form). At this point it's fairly healed up, but I need to work on overall strength and balance of both knees.

I just moved OCONUS, so reception is spotty. I should be creating my log this week.

If you're going into a lunge on a back squat, this may be your problem. At heavier weights, that's gonna' be terrible for the knees.

I found the 4 key form issues in the back squat are as follows. Doing this actually improves my knee health and strength, and takes away all the pain during every aspect of my life including sports:

1. Squat to parallel. The top of the thigh needs to be parallel or a little deeper. If you can't get this depth, you are not getting the benefits in your hamstrings and glutes, and you are probably using too much weight, which will hurt the knees.

2. Don't "lunge" or make a scissors with your legs. The knee should not go further than the toes at the bottom of the lift, or maybe a tiny bit further. The shins stay fairly vertical, maybe 70 degrees to the floor.

3. Bar should stay over mid-foot, straight up and down, for the entire motion.

4. No matter what foot angle you prefer, the knee should point in the same direction as the foot at the bottom of the lift. I prefer 35-45 degrees, so my knees flare out at about that angle during the squat.

Like I said, when I do all this stuff properly, I have no knee pain at all (or hip or back pain). I'm 55 and am pretty active in sports. I run quite a bit and play goalie in ice hockey, both of which are torture on the knees and hips, but the squats and deads allow me to stay in the game.

Of course, you could have an injury. Or form issues. It is not uncommon for poor form issues in the squat to lead to injuries.

Wallbilly, I appreciate the tips. I'm pretty sure my knee issues were a combination of too much weight too fast and #4 on your list with not proper tracking of my knees

As I do BB, I'm going to focus on strengthening my leg muscles using (BSSQ and RDLs) and as I move into my continuation protocol focusing more on form than weight.

[WallBilly]

Wallbilly, I appreciate the tips. I'm pretty sure my knee issues were a combination of too much weight too fast and #4 on your list with not proper tracking of my knees

Adding too much weight too fast is a mistake that I have made several times, especially when on Starting Strength a number of years ago. It is really hard to have the discipline to keep good form and keep adding weight every single workout. A small cheat on squat depth, for example, will allow progress to continue, but at the end of the day it is counter-productive in so many ways.

I try to remind myself that I plan to do these basic barbell lifts until the day I croak. So, slow, steady progress is just fine. 10 years from now, is it going to make any difference if I am squatting 295 tomorrow instead of 275?

Always think the long game.

[WallBilly]

By the way, Rippetoe claims that the back squat is the absolute best exercise that you can do for your knee health and strength.

https://startingstrength.com/article/sq ... your-knees

My experience supports this. 35 years of leg extensions, leg curls, leg presses (all on crappy machines) and sports left me with a wobbly ACL, sore knees, sore hips, a sore back, and a sour attitude, almost ready to give up sports.

Then I discovered Starting Strength followed by TB.

~ 4 years of squats and deadlifts later, and I'm a machine now. No pain, life is fun again.

[Johnny_Scaevola]

Maybe I missed it but where are you at overall? What’s your goal and what template are you using? Your doing SE for B.B. or as part of another template? I’d be careful with unilateral leg exercises I tore my meniscus doing pistols as a playground after a run. I did multiple things wrong to bring me to the point of that injury but loaded one legged exercises are dead to me now for the risk to my knees, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. Lunges and TGUs are fine and were vital to my rehab but if you really want stable knees: heavy squats and deadlifts are the best thing IMHO.

[ARLOG2017]

Hey all,

Just wanted to follow up on my previous post. So I ran through BB with the BSSQ and KB RDLs as my leg exercises. The result was 100% better than I have ever been in the past. In retrospect, I think reverse lunges would have achieved the exact same end-state as the BSSQ without putting additional strain on my knees (similar to what Johnny_Scaevola was talking about). I really appreciate the advice on exercises to tackle my weakness in squats! I'll be incorporating the reverse lunges into my SE Component as I move into Fighter-Bangkok/Green starting next week.

-J.