Training Max: Seeing a Pattern

[K.B.]

People who follow the reddit discussion know that I'm a big train max fan.

For any experienced lifter who has to balance strength against other fitness attributes and real life demands, a training max is most likely the way to go. There are inevitably going to be days that you are not as sharp as you were back when you last tested your maxes. For example, sometimes I'm squatting the day after an Apex session, but I would never test my squat the day after a tough hill workout. In other words, we tend to test our maxes in nearly ideal recovery situations, but a lot (most?) of our training days are going to happen in less than ideal recovery situations because we have other priorities we are balancing. MAYBE, if strength were your only priority you could get away with a 100% training max, but that's not the case for most people on this forum. Looking back I have never said "That block would've been more productive, if I hadn't used a training max" but I have seriously regretted not using one. That makes even more sense when you are using a high frequency program, such as Operator. You goal should be that when 90-95% weeks come by the barbells are still snapping right up. If you want the magic of high frequency training, you need to work with numbers you can hit any day you show up in the gym, even a bad day. If you feel like you need more work, just push your volume a bit. The worst case scenario (short of getting hurt) is getting to week three, missing a bunch of marks and realizing your whole block is botched. I strive to hit that golden mean of walking away from my workouts knowing that I really did get something done, while also feeling a little regret that I didn't do more. It's better to be a bit hungry.

I'm probably going to transition to Zulu for a while later this fall. I was tempted to go with a 100% max to base my percentages on, since Zulu is lower frequency (per lift) than OP. Looking at my spreadsheet, however, I could very easily get stuffed on a bad day during the 95% week. Thus, I'm going to use a training max.

Of course there are a lot of ways of determine a training max. Wendler's standard 90% is great. You could, if you are able to restrain yourself on test day, use a Dan John "sorta max", and I like the idea of using a 2RM instead of a 1RM. If you have any powerlifting/weightlifting experience, you might use what you think would be a reasonable opening lift in a meet as your training max.

x 2, this should be a sticky in the member articles section. With high frequency programs like Operator, there's a greasing-the-groove effect happening in the background that allows for breathing room on how much weight you train with.

[WallBilly]

As I browse through these forums and the sub, I see a pattern emerging:

"Finished up a block of _____ and wow my lifts increased big time!" Training max used.

Then a few weeks later, same poster:

"This block felt hard. I struggled during week ____ and missed a few reps. I've stalled" Training max not used this time.

Guilty as charged, Your Honor.

I've been humbled and beaten into submission by the good arguments here and the bar. It's back to Training Max for me next block.

Say . . . . 90% or 95%? Kidding.

[Barkadion]

People who follow the reddit discussion know that I'm a big train max fan.

For any experienced lifter who has to balance strength against other fitness attributes and real life demands, a training max is most likely the way to go. There are inevitably going to be days that you are not as sharp as you were back when you last tested your maxes. For example, sometimes I'm squatting the day after an Apex session, but I would never test my squat the day after a tough hill workout. In other words, we tend to test our maxes in nearly ideal recovery situations, but a lot (most?) of our training days are going to happen in less than ideal recovery situations because we have other priorities we are balancing. MAYBE, if strength were your only priority you could get away with a 100% training max, but that's not the case for most people on this forum. Looking back I have never said "That block would've been more productive, if I hadn't used a training max" but I have seriously regretted not using one. That makes even more sense when you are using a high frequency program, such as Operator. You goal should be that when 90-95% weeks come by the barbells are still snapping right up. If you want the magic of high frequency training, you need to work with numbers you can hit any day you show up in the gym, even a bad day. If you feel like you need more work, just push your volume a bit. The worst case scenario (short of getting hurt) is getting to week three, missing a bunch of marks and realizing your whole block is botched. I strive to hit that golden mean of walking away from my workouts knowing that I really did get something done, while also feeling a little regret that I didn't do more. It's better to be a bit hungry.

I'm probably going to transition to Zulu for a while later this fall. I was tempted to go with a 100% max to base my percentages on, since Zulu is lower frequency (per lift) than OP. Looking at my spreadsheet, however, I could very easily get stuffed on a bad day during the 95% week. Thus, I'm going to use a training max.

Of course there are a lot of ways of determine a training max. Wendler's standard 90% is great. You could, if you are able to restrain yourself on test day, use a Dan John "sorta max", and I like the idea of using a 2RM instead of a 1RM. If you have any powerlifting/weightlifting experience, you might use what you think would be a reasonable opening lift in a meet as your training max.

Also, I can see how I can go without re-testing by just small forced progression. For a while. Should be safe way to go for a year or so...

[Saracen]

In other words, we tend to test our maxes in nearly ideal recovery situations, but a lot (most?) of our training days are going to happen in less than ideal recovery situations because we have other priorities we are balancing.

This is a profound statement that gets glossed over when it comes to using a trg max.

[Ten8]

As I browse through these forums and the sub, I see a pattern emerging:

"Finished up a block of _____ and wow my lifts increased big time!" Training max used.

Then a few weeks later, same poster:

"This block felt hard. I struggled during week ____ and missed a few reps. I've stalled" Training max not used this time.

Guilty as charged, Your Honor.

I've been humbled and beaten into submission by the good arguments here and the bar. It's back to Training Max for me next block.

Say . . . . 90% or 95%? Kidding.

LOL, I didn't mean to single anyone out...I see this all over the place on the sub and other forums as well. I only pointed it out because I was super-tempted to do it myself, then it just kinda jumped out at me after many late night forum browsings

[WallBilly]

LOL, I didn't mean to single anyone out...I see this all over the place on the sub and other forums as well. I only pointed it out because I was super-tempted to do it myself, then it just kinda jumped out at me after many late night forum browsings

No worries, and no offense taken!

I would not be here if I didn't want to learn and get better.

[J-Madd]

Also, I can see how I can go without re-testing by just small forced progression. For a while. Should be safe way to go for a year or so...

I agree, but I'll use this as occasion to rant about testing too. The first thing to note is that testing if fun. Hell, for those of us who are in this for entirely recreational purposes, testing might be the point of what we do. What is more fun (in the gym at least!) than loading a big weight on a barbell and moving it yourself?! The problem is that testing is when you take your biggest injury risk, and you incur your greatest recovery expense. That's a worry for anybody, but for operational athletes who need to be physically gtg always, those are downsides that need to minimized. Right now for me a true, gut-busting, all-out max on the DL would leave me a mess for several days, however much fun it might be. (Though, of course, more sensible ways of testing are laid out in TB!)

My view is that you need to ask yourself whether you are likely to learn something pertinent by your test. For a newbie, whose actual max is moving up at a steep curve, frequent testing (maybe even after a 6 week block) makes a lot of sense. Such a person is likely to learn something from the test that makes a difference for the next block, because his/her max is probably increasing by leaps and bounds. Suppose that your are an experienced lifter whose "curve" is not nearly so steep anymore. How likely are you to learn something after just a six-week block? Not very likely in my experience. Maybe you'll see a 5lbs increase, and in the process you lose some valuable training time rest for and recovering from your test. I prefer to use modest forced professions for several blocks until I feel like I might see something significant in the test.

After you have a few great blocks in a row, and the weights are really snapping up like you are doing "speed" work even during the 90-95% weeks, or maybe you've been forcing progression long enough that what used to be your doubles and triples are now your easy fives, go head, pull the belt tight and have some fun finding a new max. Just remember that you can get away with only so many of these really heavy days over your lifetime, so don't burn any of them unless you really think you have something to gain.

[Barkadion]

Also, I can see how I can go without re-testing by just small forced progression. For a while. Should be safe way to go for a year or so...

I agree, but I'll use this as occasion to rant about testing too. The first thing to note is that testing if fun. Hell, for those of us who are in this for entirely recreational purposes, testing might be the point of what we do. What is more fun (in the gym at least!) than loading a big weight on a barbell and moving it yourself?! The problem is that testing is when you take your biggest injury risk, and you incur your greatest recovery expense. That's a worry for anybody, but for operational athletes who need to be physically gtg always, those are downsides that need to minimized. Right now for me a true, gut-busting, all-out max on the DL would leave me a mess for several days, however much fun it might be. (Though, of course, more sensible ways of testing are laid out in TB!)

My view is that you need to ask yourself whether you are likely to learn something pertinent by your test. For a newbie, whose actual max is moving up at a steep curve, frequent testing (maybe even after a 6 week block) makes a lot of sense. Such a person is likely to learn something from the test that makes a difference for the next block, because his/her max is probably increasing by leaps and bounds. Suppose that your are an experienced lifter whose "curve" is not nearly so steep anymore. How likely are you to learn something after just a six-week block? Not very likely in my experience. Maybe you'll see a 5lbs increase, and in the process you lose some valuable training time rest for and recovering from your test. I prefer to use modest forced professions for several blocks until I feel like I might see something significant in the test.

After you have a few great blocks in a row, and the weights are really snapping up like you are doing "speed" work even during the 90-95% weeks, or maybe you've been forcing progression long enough that what used to be your doubles and triples are now your easy fives, go head, pull the belt tight and have some fun finding a new max. Just remember that you can get away with only so many of these really heavy days over your lifetime, so don't burn any of them unless you really think you have something to gain.

Thank you J-Madd.

May I ask you why you go for Zulu this fall? I am just genuinely curious in your thinking as experienced lifter..

[WallBilly]

Thank you J-Madd.

May I ask you why you go for Zulu this fall? I am just genuinely curious in your thinking as experienced lifter..

I was going to ask the same thing, and I'm looking forward to J-Madd's response.

Let's assume you do the minimum of 4 lifts. Squat, bench, WPU or OHP, dead. On Operator I can only do 3 of these so the dead is usually out.

I posted this before, but these are what I think the advantages of Zulu are.

1. I can deadlift twice a week. As much as I am loving Operator, I really miss my deads.

2. You can set it up so each day, you are doing 1 upper body and 1 full body. Example: bench+dead, squat+(WPU or OHP). I think this helps compared to doing bench and WPU/OHP on the same day. I know I can bench more easily if I haven't already done OHP, even with squats in between.

3. Workouts are shorter. Leaves time for HIC or a short E right after lifting if appropriate. Or I can get to work on time with a tad more sleep.

4. Even though it's 4 days instead of 3, there is more recovery time between each lift, and it's only twice a week per lift. Between this and the shorter workouts, I think it leaves more in the tank for sports or outside activities.

[Barkadion]

I was going to ask the same thing, and I'm looking forward to J-Madd's response.

Let's assume you do the minimum of 4 lifts. Squat, bench, WPU or OHP, dead. On Operator I can only do 3 of these so the dead is usually out.

I posted this before, but these are what I think the advantages of Zulu are.

1. I can deadlift twice a week. As much as I am loving Operator, I really miss my deads.

2. You can set it up so each day, you are doing 1 upper body and 1 full body. Example: bench+dead, squat+(WPU or OHP). I think this helps compared to doing bench and WPU/OHP on the same day. I know I can bench more easily if I haven't already done OHP, even with squats in between.

3. Workouts are shorter. Leaves time for HIC or a short E right after lifting if appropriate. Or I can get to work on time with a tad more sleep.

4. Even though it's 4 days instead of 3, there is more recovery time between each lift, and it's only twice a week per lift. Between this and the shorter workouts, I think it leaves more in the tank for sports or outside activities.

So, basically, you are keeping your Zulu format bareboned. No accessories. Interesting.

For some reason my mind was working differently. The choice between OP and Z for me is more like a choice between main lifts only and main lifts and assistance work. I am not saying that I am right or wrong, or yada yada yada.. just sharing my thoughts...

Also, I hate doing HIC after lifts. But that's me.