Jiu Jitsu as conditioning? How much is too much with other HIC/GC sessions?

[nickgoldma]

So I try to hit the mats and do some BJJ once or twice a week. I would really like to add it into my base building but I am not entirely sure where to. I will be starting my BB again due to fizzling off (another thread) and plan on starting over. I am doing strength first with fighter and the other days I would like to be directed toward E/Triple/etc. At the same time, I am concerned with the over training factor. I could always do a run earlier in the day and then go to class and train at night. Or should I consider BJJ as one session? In the warm up, we do a lot of running, calisthenics, core work, etc Some may consider it more interval than steady state. Should I be worried this much? Looking for some input. Thank you.

[J-Madd]

I find rolling to be the most expensive thing that I do in terms of recovery. I am constantly struggling to remember that it's not like other hobbies/recreational sports that might be characterized as active rest. Ideally I should count it as one one of my conditioning sessions each week. I sometimes forget and end up getting myself in a bit of trouble recovery wise. For example, if I am in Black+Op and I'm planning three sessions each week, I need to keep it to AT MOST HICx2 and one BJJ practice. Really, I probably should go HICx1 and then gauge whether I want/need another HIC based on how taxing my BJJ practice is that week. This is a point that K. Black has gently reminded me about several times. In short. My recommendation would be to count your BJJ practice as one of your conditionings sessions, and if possible put it the day before a day off.

Does BJJ count as E or HIC? I can't say. If you are doing a lot of live rolling, it might be like a HIC that goes on forever. I'd like to hear what other guys/gals have to say about that. In any event, I would definitely cut out one of your planned conditioning sessions to account for it.

[K.B.]

As usual J-Madd is correct. There's 'optimal' and there's 'situational'.

If you earn your paycheque as a professional athlete and measure your performance by milliseconds or ounces, then you need to worry about the minutiae like whether or not to count BJJ as an E or HICs. Same with if you're preparing for something like selection and you have a tight timeframe.

If you're not playing at that level, then adapt the program to your life, real life. BJJ will tax your aerobic/anaerobic system. Will it be identical to running an LSS session? No. It doesn't have to be. As long as you're following the broad-strokes of the program and not wildly veering off course, it will do the job. A BJJ session or two every week in place of E is perfectly acceptable. The alternative is you try to cram it all in, train twice a day, be exhausted all the time and then lose the block to injury anyway.

So yes, count it as a conditioning session.

[WallBilly]

So, I have been struggling with similar issues.

In April, my hockey season ended, and I was able to completely focus on BB followed by Black/Op. It has been very rewarding.

In October, hockey starts back up again. I can't say whether goaltending is in the same ballpark as BJJ, and it probably is not in many respects, but it can be very taxing. I'm up and down to my knees a lot, and on a day where my defense is lame, my heart rate monitor can tell me that I've just burned 1100 calories in 75 minutes, and the gear is soaked completely through with sweat. (I know, I know, take that with a grain of salt, but even if it's off 25 or 30%, that's still a good conditioning session.)

The problem with my sport, and I suspect with most people's sports, is they don't fit cleanly into either HIC or E. KB has an example in the books about a recreational soccer player and it is the same thing. It's not intense enough (and maybe too long of RI's) for HIC, and it's not constant enough in terms of HR for E.

So I should quit hockey, right? Nah, can't live without it.

My plan this year is as follows:

Hockey 2X/week counts as GC.
3 Op sessions
1 HIC (just like J-Madd suggested)
Optional EASY 30 minute E occasionally, we'll see about this.
On occasional weeks of 3X hockey (a game in an intramural league), drop either HIC or E.

I just don't want to lose all the Black gains and have to go back to Base next April "running" 13 minute miles again. Thus, the E.

We'll see shortly if I can handle this load.

[J-Madd]

So, I have been struggling with similar issues.

In April, my hockey season ended, and I was able to completely focus on BB followed by Black/Op. It has been very rewarding.

In October, hockey starts back up again. I can't say whether goaltending is in the same ballpark as BJJ, and it probably is not in many respects, but it can be very taxing. I'm up and down to my knees a lot, and on a day where my defense is lame, my heart rate monitor can tell me that I've just burned 1100 calories in 75 minutes, and the gear is soaked completely through with sweat. (I know, I know, take that with a grain of salt, but even if it's off 25 or 30%, that's still a good conditioning session.)

The problem with my sport, and I suspect with most people's sports, is they don't fit cleanly into either HIC or E. KB has an example in the books about a recreational soccer player and it is the same thing. It's not intense enough (and maybe too long of RI's) for HIC, and it's not constant enough in terms of HR for E.

So I should quit hockey, right? Nah, can't live without it.

My plan this year is as follows:

Hockey 2X/week counts as GC.
3 Op sessions
1 HIC (just like J-Madd suggested)
Optional EASY 30 minute E occasionally, we'll see about this.
On occasional weeks of 3X hockey (a game in an intramural league), drop either HIC or E.

I just don't want to lose all the Black gains and have to go back to Base next April "running" 13 minute miles again. Thus, the E.

We'll see shortly if I can handle this load.

I like your set-up. Right now I'm thriving on MSx3, 2 HIC, and 1 BJJ session each week, with the occasion fun run thrown in to replace a HIC or if I happen to miss BJJ. I ran the same protocol for most of last winter and spring (before going base for the summer), and I got great results. I'm kicking around giving Zulu another try, in that case I will just do one HIC and the BJJ session as my standard conditioning for each week (with the occasional fun run). If you end up starting next year's base build at 13 min/mile, so what? Inside of two weeks you will be back to your old solid pace. This summer after I came out of Black and into base building, I hadn't ridden my bike any real distance or swam at all in a few months (it was all sprints and occasional fun runs for the winter/spring). I nearly drowned my first swim, and I was really slow my first ride, but after a couple weeks I was right back to approaching my distance PRs for both those events. I find the same thing transitioning from base to Black -- I get a great rebound/supercompensatory effect.

I love your attitude toward hockey in relation to the rest of your training. You aren't doing this to be a better worker-outer! Worry about whether BJJ or playing hockey is what Wendler calls "majoring in the minors." Hockey and BJJ are awesome, noble human endeavors. Certainly we are all doing this to some degree for the sake of keeping above ground for as long as possible (health) and the twinkle in the wife's eye (aesthetics) to some degree, but I also want my training to make me a more capable and effective human being. Part of that for me means taking the risk of competition, whether that's BJJ or triathlons. If you need to cut back on something, cut out the HIC. I bet 2-3 75min beatdowns in front of a goal each week is going to keep a guy lean and mean. I really admire how you have stuck with this sort of thing into your middle age. Well done man!

[WallBilly]

Funny thing is, before I started doing Base and Black, I had myself convinced that I could count hockey as HIC. It can be intense for short bursts.

Now, after I know what my lungs and heart feel like after a swift kick in the APEX Hills ass, there's no way I can count it as HIC.

I haven't really done any HIC in 30 years, it turns out, much to my surprise. And I'm liking it.

[MuftiMike]

So, I have been struggling with similar issues.

In April, my hockey season ended, and I was able to completely focus on BB followed by Black/Op. It has been very rewarding.

In October, hockey starts back up again. I can't say whether goaltending is in the same ballpark as BJJ, and it probably is not in many respects, but it can be very taxing. I'm up and down to my knees a lot, and on a day where my defense is lame, my heart rate monitor can tell me that I've just burned 1100 calories in 75 minutes, and the gear is soaked completely through with sweat. (I know, I know, take that with a grain of salt, but even if it's off 25 or 30%, that's still a good conditioning session.)

The problem with my sport, and I suspect with most people's sports, is they don't fit cleanly into either HIC or E. KB has an example in the books about a recreational soccer player and it is the same thing. It's not intense enough (and maybe too long of RI's) for HIC, and it's not constant enough in terms of HR for E.

So I should quit hockey, right? Nah, can't live without it.

My plan this year is as follows:

Hockey 2X/week counts as GC.
3 Op sessions
1 HIC (just like J-Madd suggested)
Optional EASY 30 minute E occasionally, we'll see about this.
On occasional weeks of 3X hockey (a game in an intramural league), drop either HIC or E.

I just don't want to lose all the Black gains and have to go back to Base next April "running" 13 minute miles again. Thus, the E.

We'll see shortly if I can handle this load.

If you have an off-season/on-season would you not be able to work that to your advantage? What I'm thinking is, you could spend your off season running Base followed by Black until your season starts. Then coast a little bit, focus more on playing the game and cutting back on HICS/E drastically.

[Im6-7]

So, I have been struggling with similar issues.

In April, my hockey season ended, and I was able to completely focus on BB followed by Black/Op. It has been very rewarding.

In October, hockey starts back up again. I can't say whether goaltending is in the same ballpark as BJJ, and it probably is not in many respects, but it can be very taxing. I'm up and down to my knees a lot, and on a day where my defense is lame, my heart rate monitor can tell me that I've just burned 1100 calories in 75 minutes, and the gear is soaked completely through with sweat. (I know, I know, take that with a grain of salt, but even if it's off 25 or 30%, that's still a good conditioning session.)

The problem with my sport, and I suspect with most people's sports, is they don't fit cleanly into either HIC or E. KB has an example in the books about a recreational soccer player and it is the same thing. It's not intense enough (and maybe too long of RI's) for HIC, and it's not constant enough in terms of HR for E.

So I should quit hockey, right? Nah, can't live without it.

My plan this year is as follows:

Hockey 2X/week counts as GC.
3 Op sessions
1 HIC (just like J-Madd suggested)
Optional EASY 30 minute E occasionally, we'll see about this.
On occasional weeks of 3X hockey (a game in an intramural league), drop either HIC or E.

I just don't want to lose all the Black gains and have to go back to Base next April "running" 13 minute miles again. Thus, the E.

We'll see shortly if I can handle this load.

If you have an off-season/on-season would you not be able to work that to your advantage? What I'm thinking is, you could spend your off season running Base followed by Black until your season starts. Then coast a little bit, focus more on playing the game and cutting back on HICS/E drastically.

This is what immediately came to mind when I read your post Wallbilly. I'm from Canada (hockey's kind of a big deal here & one of my buddies runs TB with an off-season/hockey season plan very similar to what Mufti's outlined. Not 100% certain, but I believe he does Base followed by Black off-season, then drops to Fighter and a HIC or two when the season starts. He definitely counts practice as conditioning.

[Golf Kilo]

This is my experience, maybe it will help.

I train Muay Thai about 3-4 times a week. I count it as conditioning, and don't really bother with trying to classify it as HIC/E/GC. For strength I use Fighter template. MT gives me conditioning and SE, but it doesn't give me anything in the way of maximum-strength. So I fill in the deficiency (in this case maximum-strength) with Fighter template. My week looks like 2 days of strength training + 3-4 days of MT. If classes are cancelled or I have the extra juice I pick a HIC or E and do it.

Every year I take a month or two off of MT. My own personal "off-season" to prevent mental stagnation and keep the motivation high. Last year I used the time to run Base Building.

What I found is that it carried over and improved my MT performance for the remainder of the year. My MT classes are very challenging (aerobic-wise) so I'm sure that keeps the cardiovascular benefits gained from Base greased.

I have little experience with BJJ, but I can't imagine it being much less intense than MT. I think if you're breathing heavy and working up a sweat you can safely count it as a conditioning workout and check that box for the week. BB changes the game and allows us a little more leeway in how we program the rest of the year imho. Next year I'm thinking of running BB twice, beginning and mid, so I can concentrate even more on MT without worrying about getting in extra conditioning.

If you don't run Base, you might have to find creative ways to cram in some extra conditioning.

[Tyr0331]

I'm in the same situation with BJJ. I try to hit 2-3 practices a week minimum, that's where I feel that I am still on par and not overtraining. I would think that you can stack a conditioning day in with BJJ even a strength day(strength first) as long as the sessions are six hours apart. The six hour rule is out of Matt Wenning's tactical fitness manual.