Forced progression - stalling

[Corax]

Hi everyone,

Just a quick question. It's not a problem now, but it will be at some point in the future. If you force progression every six weeks with Operator and eventually stall (the weights get too heavy to complete all your reps), what is advised? It seems you have several options:

- Use the same weights for another cycle (or several cycles) until you grow into them and force progression after 12 weeks or more
- Lower your TM / go back several cycles and start over
- Make the switch to Operator I/A or Zulu template

Is one option preferred over another or do you have to use your best judgement on this? And for those using forced progression, when do you test (if you do)?

Thanks!

[J-Madd]

Hi everyone,

Just a quick question. It's not a problem now, but it will be at some point in the future. If you force progression every six weeks with Operator and eventually stall (the weights get too heavy to complete all your reps), what is advised? It seems you have several options:

- Use the same weights for another cycle (or several cycles) until you grow into them and force progression after 12 weeks or more
- Lower your TM / go back several cycles and start over
- Make the switch to Operator I/A or Zulu template

Is one option preferred over another or do you have to use your best judgement on this? And for those using forced progression, when do you test (if you do)?

Thanks!

I'm not sure that anyone ever must switch to Zulu, unless your goals/priorities change. At the very least, I would work with the first two options for a long time before thinking about leaving Operator. Much will depend on how badly you have stalled. If you are literally having a hard time making the numbers, even with ample rest breaks, then it's time to back things up. In that case, I would take 90% of your current training max, and then start the entire process again. If the issue is that things are just sort of getting heavy, while you are still making all the numbers (less crisp, but still great form and no doubt you can make the numbers), then I would hang with the the same TM for a few blocks and see what you get.

Remember also that you need not force progressing every six weeks. Stick with a TM until you are certain you have dominated every rep of block. These situations might also be a sign that it's time for a deload week too.

[Corax]

Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. I finished my second OP block now (I still struggled to find my sweet spot with diet etc during the fist one) and will post my review tomorrow. Tested squat and bench yesterday, deadlifts and WPU are up today. I'd like to continue with a TM and forced progression for my next blocks.

When do you test? I know it's not necessary or the goal of the program, but I'd still like to track my 1 RMs from time to time.

[J-Madd]

Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. I finished my second OP block now (I still struggled to find my sweet spot with diet etc during the fist one) and will post my review tomorrow. Tested squat and bench yesterday, deadlifts and WPU are up today. I'd like to continue with a TM and forced progression for my next blocks.

When do you test? I know it's not necessary or the goal of the program, but I'd still like to track my 1 RMs from time to time.

The next time your forced progression runs aground, take a few days off and then test. That's a goo natural break.

[Maxrip13]

Remember you can also manipulate sets with operator.

One way to progress would be to go from 3x5 sets per exercise - 5x5 sets pers exercise in your earlier weeks.
Once you are across that then bump the weight up and do it again. If you are already do 5x5 in the earlier weeks with no issues, then use 3x5 for a cycle at the heavier weight and progress up to 5x5 before using a new training max.

I also like to decrease my rest down to the minimum 2 mins as a way to show I have improved my recovery ability at the given weight.

Another way to make it easier if you are starting to struggle to hit weights is to do your workout in a circuit fashion. E.g

Squat
Rest 2+ mins
Bench
Rest 2+ mins
Weighted Pullup
Rest 2=Mins
Start at squat again and repeat x 3-5 rounds.

I found switching to this maximizes my rest and makes it much easier to hit higher weights and not stall out.

[Barkadion]

Remember you can also manipulate sets with operator.

One way to progress would be to go from 3x5 sets per exercise - 5x5 sets pers exercise in your earlier weeks.
Once you are across that then bump the weight up and do it again. If you are already do 5x5 in the earlier weeks with no issues, then use 3x5 for a cycle at the heavier weight and progress up to 5x5 before using a new training max.

I also like to decrease my rest down to the minimum 2 mins as a way to show I have improved my recovery ability at the given weight.

Another way to make it easier if you are starting to struggle to hit weights is to do your workout in a circuit fashion. E.g

Squat
Rest 2+ mins
Bench
Rest 2+ mins
Weighted Pullup
Rest 2=Mins
Start at squat again and repeat x 3-5 rounds.

I found switching to this maximizes my rest and makes it much easier to hit higher weights and not stall out.

Double progression logic!

And:
- if you struggle with 5x5 -> Keep the same weight and run 3/4x5 for the next cycle.
- if you struggle with 3x5 -> either repeat the same block or decrease weight and do it for 5x5.

[Maxrip13]

The above also.

You really have no reason to stop progressing, you just need to look at things differently. It's not always just about how much weight is lifted.
I have found that the earlier 75%-85% 3-5 x 3-5 weeks are more important than the later 90% + weeks in terms of progressing long term for myself.

Not something i recommend but I regularly skip half of the final week of operator if the week before went well. I know I can hit those doubles and triples easily. I usually will do one of the sessions just to confirm.

I am strong in the 1 rep area in comparison to my 5 rep strength. If I can 5x5 of a weight easily for the week at 85%, I can usually predict my max has increased. If I struggle to 3x5 it, I need to stick with it for longer.

I don't know your full training background, but I recommend you work up to hitting that 5x5 or similar across the lower percentage weeks and take your time to progress. Use some of the recommendations in this thread and really working at owning the weights before worrying about progressing.

This time next year you will understand what I mean when you have consistently trained like this and made drastic improvements. The best part is your strength training sessions won't even feel hard and your consistency will out strip any results you have had by training yourself to exhaustion in the past. Save those hard efforts for the conditioing, strength is about consistency.

[Barkadion]

The above also.

You really have no reason to stop progressing, you just need to look at things differently. It's not always just about how much weight is lifted.
I have found that the earlier 75%-85% 3-5 x 3-5 weeks are more important than the later 90% + weeks in terms of progressing long term for myself.

Not something i recommend but I regularly skip half of the final week of operator if the week before went well. I know I can hit those doubles and triples easily. I usually will do one of the sessions just to confirm.

I am strong in the 1 rep area in comparison to my 5 rep strength. If I can 5x5 of a weight easily for the week at 85%, I can usually predict my max has increased. If I struggle to 3x5 it, I need to stick with it for longer.

I don't know your full training background, but I recommend you work up to hitting that 5x5 or similar across the lower percentage weeks and take your time to progress. Use some of the recommendations in this thread and really working at owning the weights before worrying about progressing.

This time next year you will understand what I mean when you have consistently trained like this and made drastic improvements. The best part is your strength training sessions won't even feel hard and your consistency will out strip any results you have had by training yourself to exhaustion in the past. Save those hard efforts for the conditioing, strength is about consistency.

This is great comment!

[DocOctagon]

Remember you can also manipulate sets with operator.

One way to progress would be to go from 3x5 sets per exercise - 5x5 sets pers exercise in your earlier weeks.
Once you are across that then bump the weight up and do it again. If you are already do 5x5 in the earlier weeks with no issues, then use 3x5 for a cycle at the heavier weight and progress up to 5x5 before using a new training max.

I also like to decrease my rest down to the minimum 2 mins as a way to show I have improved my recovery ability at the given weight.

Another way to make it easier if you are starting to struggle to hit weights is to do your workout in a circuit fashion. E.g

Squat
Rest 2+ mins
Bench
Rest 2+ mins
Weighted Pullup
Rest 2=Mins
Start at squat again and repeat x 3-5 rounds.

I found switching to this maximizes my rest and makes it much easier to hit higher weights and not stall out.

Great post! I like the using of the RI to assess your mastery of the weight.

[DocOctagon]

The above also.

You really have no reason to stop progressing, you just need to look at things differently. It's not always just about how much weight is lifted.
I have found that the earlier 75%-85% 3-5 x 3-5 weeks are more important than the later 90% + weeks in terms of progressing long term for myself.

Not something i recommend but I regularly skip half of the final week of operator if the week before went well. I know I can hit those doubles and triples easily. I usually will do one of the sessions just to confirm.

I am strong in the 1 rep area in comparison to my 5 rep strength. If I can 5x5 of a weight easily for the week at 85%, I can usually predict my max has increased. If I struggle to 3x5 it, I need to stick with it for longer.

I don't know your full training background, but I recommend you work up to hitting that 5x5 or similar across the lower percentage weeks and take your time to progress. Use some of the recommendations in this thread and really working at owning the weights before worrying about progressing.

This time next year you will understand what I mean when you have consistently trained like this and made drastic improvements. The best part is your strength training sessions won't even feel hard and your consistency will out strip any results you have had by training yourself to exhaustion in the past. Save those hard efforts for the conditioing, strength is about consistency.

Awesome way to sum it up. I wish I'd learned this decades ago.