lennarn wrote:Maybe you can elaborate on the reasons he gives?
Basically the podcast was like a one sided internet post. He said that there was no safe way to swing a KB because the safest way to lift a weight was in an efficient path that's close to the center of mass.
In contrast he claims that the KB swing extends and displaced the weight forwards of the body. That's the closest he came to any form of explanation. In short, he gave no reason for his statement.
I happened to listen to this same podcast recently - and I kind of agree with poliquin. From my own experience, I do agree that technique is key with Kb swings in loading the hips rather than lower back. However, Even with close attention to form, I do feel that I strain my back more often with swings than with other exercises (compared w cleans and snatches, for example, where kb does not arc out as much). If you look at mcgills paper on this exercise (only 7 subjects) he noted that a subset of people may not benefit from the low back shear with the swing. It's not that there is no value to the swing, or that you will definitely injure yourself, just that there are more effective ways to work the same body parts. I was doing S&S, now just TGU (mixed with other lifts).
This debate brings up an always interesting problem about what a layman is supposed to think when he/she is confronted with contrary conclusions from respected experts.
Keep in mind that (as a lot you might know from things I've written and posted around here), I'm a guy who is pretty enthusiastic about his KB swings! They have never given me trouble with my back, and I'm not exactly the poster child for back health -- I suffered multiple stress fractures in my L5 while playing football in college. In fact, my back pain has become increasingly less frequent over the last ten years since I started swinging KBs. Now I have nearly zero difficulty with my back. I know correlation doesn't make for causation, and there are some other obvious variables in play, e.g., losing over 90 pounds of bodyweight, so please note that I'm not saying KB swings heal all your back woes.
I also believe, however, that somebody can seriously mess himself up with KB swings. My wife, for example, loves to swing a kettlebell. It really zaps her body composition in a good way, and makes her feel great. The problem is that no matter what we do with her form, volume, intensity, etc., etc., they always eventually geek her back. She just needs to stay away from swings. Fair enough, there are other things she can do.
My point is that the swing can really give and really take, and it might come down to some particularities in your situation. You might not know what those are until you get into the trenches. Thus, if you are going to play with the swing (or really any lift), then you need to proceed with caution. I started swinging a 35lb KB back in 2006, and it has taken me ten years to get where I am now with swings. Take your time and get the self-knowledge you need, so you can make good decisions. By all means, if something hurts your back, cut it out. There are other options.
I realize that part of Poliquin's point is that you can be doing unseen or unfelt damage with the swing. That's probably true with a lot of exercise options. That's why it's important not to wait until you have a problem before taking measures. Don't wait until something hurts before you stop a set, or decide to cycle off an exercise for a block or two. Give your body a rest from things periodically, and see what that changes. For example, I was a big KB swinging jag this fall, and I hit a milestone I'd been working toward serval weeks back. I've since backed away from the swings entirely.
J-madd - nice commentary. while the swing is not great for me, I'm sure it may vary by person.
Poliquin also dissed goblet squats in same conversation as they are limited by rhomboid strength. While that is true, disagree w him as I look at that exercise as more a SE and mobility focused move, that has some crossover to everyday movement and lifting.
J-Madd wrote:This debate brings up an always interesting problem about what a layman is supposed to think when he/she is confronted with contrary conclusions from respected experts.
Keep in mind that (as a lot you might know from things I've written and posted around here), I'm a guy who is pretty enthusiastic about his KB swings! They have never given me trouble with my back, and I'm not exactly the poster child for back health -- I suffered multiple stress fractures in my L5 while playing football in college. In fact, my back pain has become increasingly less frequent over the last ten years since I started swinging KBs. Now I have nearly zero difficulty with my back. I know correlation doesn't make for causation, and there are some other obvious variables in play, e.g., losing over 90 pounds of bodyweight, so please note that I'm not saying KB swings heal all your back woes.
I also believe, however, that somebody can seriously mess himself up with KB swings. My wife, for example, loves to swing a kettlebell. It really zaps her body composition in a good way, and makes her feel great. The problem is that no matter what we do with her form, volume, intensity, etc., etc., they always eventually geek her back. She just needs to stay away from swings. Fair enough, there are other things she can do.
My point is that the swing can really give and really take, and it might come down to some particularities in your situation. You might not know what those are until you get into the trenches. Thus, if you are going to play with the swing (or really any lift), then you need to proceed with caution. I started swinging a 35lb KB back in 2006, and it has taken me ten years to get where I am now with swings. Take your time and get the self-knowledge you need, so you can make good decisions. By all means, if something hurts your back, cut it out. There are other options.
I realize that part of Poliquin's point is that you can be doing unseen or unfelt damage with the swing. That's probably true with a lot of exercise options. That's why it's important not to wait until you have a problem before taking measures. Don't wait until something hurts before you stop a set, or decide to cycle off an exercise for a block or two. Give your body a rest from things periodically, and see what that changes. For example, I was a big KB swinging jag this fall, and I hit a milestone I'd been working toward serval weeks back. I've since backed away from the swings entirely.
How does the wife go with one handed vs 2 hand swings? I have some back issues myself and find that i need to swap between the 2 types or i get back pain. Too many of either in one session and I get pain. I also have to do my swings only to chest height with a bit of an arm bend. I just focus on the hip pop and I am reasonably good.
I have a similar issue with back squats. My technique and mobility is pretty good, but I always get back pain for some reason. I love squats so much though haha.
Maxrip13 wrote: How does the wife go with one handed vs 2 hand swings? I have some back issues myself and find that i need to swap between the 2 types or i get back pain. Too many of either in one session and I get pain. I also have to do my swings only to chest height with a bit of an arm bend. I just focus on the hip pop and I am reasonably good.
1H or 2H doesn't really make a difference for her. What really has worked well for her is a combination of yoga, core work (Pilates, etc.), and a base building approach to running. Using that combination, in about twelve months we were able to get her from being barely able to walk around the block (from her back pain) to running continuously for 60 min and competing in 5K races.
I have a similar issue with back squats. My technique and mobility is pretty good, but I always get back pain for some reason. I love squats so much though haha.
I have a similar relationship with the deadlift, much like a bad girlfriend. I know she is bad for me, and she always ends up hurting me, but I just can't resist.
J-Madd wrote:I have a similar relationship with the deadlift, much like a bad girlfriend. I know she is bad for me, and she always ends up hurting me, but I just can't resist.
[quote="Norcoaster"Poliquin also dissed goblet squats in same conversation as they are limited by rhomboid strength. While that is true, disagree w him as I look at that exercise as more a SE and mobility focused move, that has some crossover to everyday movement and lifting.[/quote]
Goblet squats are a mainstay for me in my warm-up and SE work. I also think they are excellent for teaching somebody how to squat and to gain the mobility to do so. Whenever I've worked with someone on getting their squat technique together, I've found that a steady diet of goblets really helps.
While I don't take everything poliquin says as gospel ( he comes off as a bit conceited and sometimes sees things in black and white) I do respect his 40 years or so of dedication to strength training.
I am reading his poliquin principles book (more focused to body building, but also strength focused info as well a- consider checking it out ) and also learned a lot from his interviews - super knowledgeable. Also has trained many world champs in different sports.
