Hi everyone, I’m new to this forum and wanted to ask you guys for help regarding programming. I just finished reading TB 1 & 2. I started doing BJJ, MMA (emphasis on wrestling), Judo, and Muay Thai a couple months ago. The school I go to offers all of them, so I figured why not try them all. I’m a 24 year old male, 5’6” and my weight fluctuates between 150 and 155 lbs. I played many sports growing up. Played soccer and golf in high school, and played golf in college. I haven’t lifted since starting martial arts, but my last maxs were as follows: Squat: 250 lbs., Deadlift, 275 lbs., Military Press: 105 lbs., Bench Press: 160 lbs. I can do 40 pushups, 10 pull-ups and my mile time is about 8 minutes. I eat a healthy diet, and have no restrictions. My weekly schedule is as follows:
Monday: MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ
Tuesday: Judo, BJJ
Wednesday: MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ
Thursday: Muay Thai, BJJ
Friday: BJJ
Saturday and Sunday are off
All classes are an hour each. Monday-Thursday is at night, and Friday is at 11 AM. So my S&C training would be done in the morning (except maybe Friday) BJJ is mostly a heavy emphasis on drilling with about 15-20 minutes rolling at the end. Sometimes we roll more, and sometimes we do “competition training,” which is basically just a lot of work, cardio, and calisthenics mixed together with drilling and rolling. We never know when it’s coming, so I can’t plan around it. MMA is wrestling based and definitely more emphasis on work. Muay Thai is a lot of drilling and some very light sparring. I’ve woken up sore, but have never walked out of any class completely gassed (many times I’ll be gassed but if I rest for 5 minutes I’m totally fine) This schedule isn’t set in stone for me, as life gets in the way. I do try to go as much as possible because it’s very fun for me. By the way, I work from home and have a home gym setup (power rack, barbell & weights), so I have a lot of free time due to not having to drive to work or the gym. As of right now, time commitment isn’t a problem.
Sorry for so much typing, just wanted to make sure I gave as much info as possible. As I said before, I’ve read TB 1 & 2 and understand the programs, but I wanted to ask you guys a few questions on programming because of my martial arts schedule. I really just want to be in great shape for martial arts. I’ve always thought they were phenomenal athletes and as of right now my goal is to get is as good martial arts shape as I can. Good strength, great gas tank, etc. So here are my questions:
1. When running base building (standard template) would you recommend taking it easy with the martial arts, or just see how I feel and back off as necessary?
2. After base building, would you recommend black or green protocol? I was leaning towards green at first, just because I’ve read several things by Joel Jamieson saying MMA is dominantly an aerobic sport. I’m probably going to cycle between green and black, but just wanted to see what you guys thought.
3. The strength template. I was going to run Fighter just because of all the training I’m doing. I was going to run it with a FS, Overhead Press, WPU, and Optional Deadlift cluster because KB recommends it for MMA athletes (Grunt Cluster). Again, just wanted to see if you guys think this would be OK or if there would be a better option I’m not thinking of.
4. My main concern. Should I back off the martial arts to accommodate S&C? 11 hours a week is a lot, but again, it’s not all hard. Lots of drilling and very light sparring. I really like learning martial arts, and think that skill improvement should come before everything else. However, if I have a remove a couple classes a week from my schedule to make room for S&C that would be OK with me.
I’ve always suffered from paralysis by analysis, so I figured I’d just take the time to type up exactly what I’m dealing with and see what feedback I got. Sorry again for the long read, just wanted to provide as much info as possible. Hope I didn’t bore you, and I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say. If I forgot anything or you need more info, please let me know. Thanks.
Help With Programming for Martial Arts
Re: Help With Programming for Martial Arts
Thats a lot of volume.
If mma etc is your goal focus on that. At most do a minimalist cluster of fighter.
You don’t need conditioning with that schedule unless you become a pro fighter. As a hobbyist you have your bases covered just with all those classes.
If you have to take time away from skill work for conditioning you are doing it wrong.
If mma etc is your goal focus on that. At most do a minimalist cluster of fighter.
You don’t need conditioning with that schedule unless you become a pro fighter. As a hobbyist you have your bases covered just with all those classes.
If you have to take time away from skill work for conditioning you are doing it wrong.
Re: Help With Programming for Martial Arts
My 2c:
That’s a lot of volume in there! It’s good to concentrate on skill work if you want to improve in MMA/BJJ/MT.
That said, if you want to compete, even at amateur levels I reckon at your age you should aim for the following:
1) STR: 0.75 BW OHP, 1.25 BW BP, 1.75 BW SQ, 2.0 BW DL. These should be achievable with some intelligent programming, a linear run out should take u here. You are already pretty close so I wouldn’t worry too much about this aspect.
2) Aerobic fitness: 8min mile at your age (assuming that is your fastest) is actually not great. In other words your strength levels > aerobic levels. I would honestly challenge you to get this down to sub 6:30 lvls.
3) Power: what’s your 40m dash or clean? My experience with the MMA guys in class vs say the pure BJJ guys are that not only are they strong/have good cardio, they are also powerful.
That’s a lot of volume in there! It’s good to concentrate on skill work if you want to improve in MMA/BJJ/MT.
That said, if you want to compete, even at amateur levels I reckon at your age you should aim for the following:
1) STR: 0.75 BW OHP, 1.25 BW BP, 1.75 BW SQ, 2.0 BW DL. These should be achievable with some intelligent programming, a linear run out should take u here. You are already pretty close so I wouldn’t worry too much about this aspect.
2) Aerobic fitness: 8min mile at your age (assuming that is your fastest) is actually not great. In other words your strength levels > aerobic levels. I would honestly challenge you to get this down to sub 6:30 lvls.
3) Power: what’s your 40m dash or clean? My experience with the MMA guys in class vs say the pure BJJ guys are that not only are they strong/have good cardio, they are also powerful.
It ain't what you don’t know that gets you into trouble.
It's what you know for sure that just ain’t so.
It's what you know for sure that just ain’t so.
Re: Help With Programming for Martial Arts
Since your volume is that high, i would suggest doing as little external conditioning as possible.
As Maxrip said, a minimalist cluster of fighter for strength would work.
More is not always better, in my experience trying to fit everything into a program leads to injury and mental draining. Your priority lies into learning. Recovery, mental as physical, should not be underestimated. Think long-term. If you have time to kill, studying fights or certain techniques might be a better investment.
By the way you mentioned MMA athletes being in phenomenal shape. I always felt like it has more to do with efficiency, conserving energy and mastering the technique than anything else. The guys at my MMA school that feel strong and powerful like a grizzly bear when you grapple with them wouldnt really blow an intermediate lifter out of the water nor beat an endurance athlete in a race.
Good luck on your journey!
As Maxrip said, a minimalist cluster of fighter for strength would work.
More is not always better, in my experience trying to fit everything into a program leads to injury and mental draining. Your priority lies into learning. Recovery, mental as physical, should not be underestimated. Think long-term. If you have time to kill, studying fights or certain techniques might be a better investment.
By the way you mentioned MMA athletes being in phenomenal shape. I always felt like it has more to do with efficiency, conserving energy and mastering the technique than anything else. The guys at my MMA school that feel strong and powerful like a grizzly bear when you grapple with them wouldnt really blow an intermediate lifter out of the water nor beat an endurance athlete in a race.
Good luck on your journey!
Re: Help With Programming for Martial Arts
Thanks for the quick replies everyone. I figured the volume was already very high but just wanted to be sure. It makes sense professional martial artists are very efficient as opposed to just flat out phenomenal shape. Just an FYI, I have no intentions on competing in martial arts. It's just something I find very interesting and fun to learn and do. Especially after grinding with golf high school through college. I needed a change of pace. A minimal cluster fighter program definitely seems like the best bet strength wise. Thanks for that.
A part of TB II that seemed to be very parallel to what I'm experiencing is Chapter 14 regarding Jun the soccer player. Lots of stop and go, and not really any fundamental aerobic work. Seemed a lot like the training classes I have. Watch the instructor demonstrate a technique, drill it, watch another technique, drill that. And then go live/semi-live at the end. Would adding a light jog every now and then be beneficial, or really just keep everything else to a minimum outside of training?
In regards to my 40 yard time, it's not impressive. I timed it at around 5.5 seconds, give or take. And I also measured my vertical at around 18 inches, give or take an inch. Again, not very impressive. Not sure what this means or how to go about improving it though. Especially if I'm going to keep everything outside training to a minimum. I'll take any suggestions you guys have though. You've already helped a bunch. Thanks again for all the help.
A part of TB II that seemed to be very parallel to what I'm experiencing is Chapter 14 regarding Jun the soccer player. Lots of stop and go, and not really any fundamental aerobic work. Seemed a lot like the training classes I have. Watch the instructor demonstrate a technique, drill it, watch another technique, drill that. And then go live/semi-live at the end. Would adding a light jog every now and then be beneficial, or really just keep everything else to a minimum outside of training?
In regards to my 40 yard time, it's not impressive. I timed it at around 5.5 seconds, give or take. And I also measured my vertical at around 18 inches, give or take an inch. Again, not very impressive. Not sure what this means or how to go about improving it though. Especially if I'm going to keep everything outside training to a minimum. I'll take any suggestions you guys have though. You've already helped a bunch. Thanks again for all the help.
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DocOctagon
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Re: Help With Programming for Martial Arts
First off thank you for actually taking the time to post all the necessary information. Frequently new posters throw up a generic question with no background info whatsoever, very refreshing.
If I were in your shoes I would keep things simple and do something along these lines;
Once or even twice a year do Base Building. When you're doing Base, drop the combat classes down to 2 or 3 times a week. During your 3 to 4 off days do E. Optionally, drop MMA altogether and run base building as is if you want some of that SE. It isn't going to kill you to drop MMA for 6-8 weeks out of the year, once a year. An SE kettlebell cluster will do wonders for you. Consider it a one step back/two steps forward kind of thing.
For the rest of the year allow MMA to take care of your conditioning and sport specific SE. The only thing missing is maximal-strength now. As others have advised, incorporate a minimalist Fighter template. I'd go as far as doing bodyweight pull-ups instead of WPU until you gauge the workload. Experiment. Try a block adding Fighter to your existing regimen. After that try dropping two of your MMA days and using those days for Fighter. See which one you like better. You might find dropping two days of MMA for two days of strength more advantageous to your game in the long run. It really depends on how much of a limiting factor strength is for you.
Keep in mind professional fighters look good because they have a concentrated 8-16 weeks of fight camp leading up to a bout. They train multiple times a day, nutritionists provide meals on a schedule, rest and recovery are programmed into the training. Rest of the year they shift down to a lower gear and go with a more sustainable training load. Experienced fighters can practically walk into camp on day 1 being sort of fat and out of shape and come out the other side lean mean machines.
Another thing I want to point out is that Black protocol does train the aerobic system. Black and Green are more about the ratio/quantity of cardio/endurance to power/strength, however both Green and Black train the aerobic and anaerobic systems.
If I were in your shoes I would keep things simple and do something along these lines;
Once or even twice a year do Base Building. When you're doing Base, drop the combat classes down to 2 or 3 times a week. During your 3 to 4 off days do E. Optionally, drop MMA altogether and run base building as is if you want some of that SE. It isn't going to kill you to drop MMA for 6-8 weeks out of the year, once a year. An SE kettlebell cluster will do wonders for you. Consider it a one step back/two steps forward kind of thing.
For the rest of the year allow MMA to take care of your conditioning and sport specific SE. The only thing missing is maximal-strength now. As others have advised, incorporate a minimalist Fighter template. I'd go as far as doing bodyweight pull-ups instead of WPU until you gauge the workload. Experiment. Try a block adding Fighter to your existing regimen. After that try dropping two of your MMA days and using those days for Fighter. See which one you like better. You might find dropping two days of MMA for two days of strength more advantageous to your game in the long run. It really depends on how much of a limiting factor strength is for you.
Keep in mind professional fighters look good because they have a concentrated 8-16 weeks of fight camp leading up to a bout. They train multiple times a day, nutritionists provide meals on a schedule, rest and recovery are programmed into the training. Rest of the year they shift down to a lower gear and go with a more sustainable training load. Experienced fighters can practically walk into camp on day 1 being sort of fat and out of shape and come out the other side lean mean machines.
Another thing I want to point out is that Black protocol does train the aerobic system. Black and Green are more about the ratio/quantity of cardio/endurance to power/strength, however both Green and Black train the aerobic and anaerobic systems.
Re: Help With Programming for Martial Arts
Sorry for not replying sooner. Thanks for the input. It cleared up a lot for me. I'm probably going to do exactly what you recommended, tweaking as necessary. Was already on the fence about going Tuesdays, so I may drop that altogether and go from there (after base building). Thanks a bunch for your guys help. If in the future I have a question regarding this topic, should I just post in this topic or create a new one? Also, on an unrelated note, would it be worth investing in a heart rate monitor for this stuff? I know it's not necessary, but if it's a game changer I wouldn't mind investing in one. Thanks again.
Re: Help With Programming for Martial Arts
I recently bought a Garmin instinct gps watch. It’s basically a budget version Fenix 5. Best heart rate watch I have ever owned. It’s only relevant in your case for LSS work so it probably isn’t worth the investment.d0m0 wrote:Sorry for not replying sooner. Thanks for the input. It cleared up a lot for me. I'm probably going to do exactly what you recommended, tweaking as necessary. Was already on the fence about going Tuesdays, so I may drop that altogether and go from there (after base building). Thanks a bunch for your guys help. If in the future I have a question regarding this topic, should I just post in this topic or create a new one? Also, on an unrelated note, would it be worth investing in a heart rate monitor for this stuff? I know it's not necessary, but if it's a game changer I wouldn't mind investing in one. Thanks again.