Maximizing the workout time and TB blasphemy

[mikhou]

Hey, guys. I just wanted to get your input on something. I have settled into a set/rep scheme using Op I/A that is really working for me. The first 3 workouts are 4 sets of 5 reps, the second 3 are 5 sets of 4 reps, the next 2 are 5 sets for 3 reps, and the last is 5 sets for 2 reps. This has been working really well for me, but the workouts are taking a pretty good while - about an hour and a half with my general warmup (about 10 minutes) and warmup sets.

So all of that to ask this. Would you ever consider doing 2 compound exercises back to back in a TB program and then taking the 2 minute rest (as in BP/Weighted chins/2 minute rest)? I know that this violates the Golden Rule of "thou shalt rest for 2 minutes between working sets" and is therefore TB blasphemy. So let me tell you why I am thinking about this. I keep an eye on Brian Alsruhe's youtube channel, and he has always recommended Giant Sets consisting of an antagonistic movement prior to the main compound movement and then a core exercise followed by 90 seconds rest. And just a few days ago, he released his Powerbuilding program template which utilizes Giant Sets. He advocates doing the antagonistic movement before the main compound movement and at the same intensity as the main compound movement. He says that this can be challenging at first, but that as you build work capacity it doesn't interfere with strength gains. As I was thinking about this, I began to wonder if perhaps I could do something like BP and then straight into weighted chins and then take the 2 minute rest before going back into BP. Now, I do realize that KB has spoken against this. KB says that if you want to superset the exercises that is fine, but that you still must keep 2 minutes rest after each exercise. I also realize that Brian's programs are setup very differently from TB. (Brian hits each compound movement once/week ala 5/3/1 as opposed to the frequency of TB.) All that I am asking is if any of you have ever tried this in order to keep the time more manageable and how it worked out for you.

Honestly, I'm one of those people that have a hard time changing anything as long as it's working, and Op I/A is working for me as written. So, I'm going to be hard-pressed to change much for the moment. I'd just like to know if any of you guys have ever done something similar and how it worked out for you. Thanks.

(I honestly feel like an idiot asking a question that KB has already answered, and you would think that after 2 years on TB that I would just "stick to the program," but I'll risk the blasphemous question and see what you guys say.)

mikhou

[Barkadion]

Hi mate,

Just dropping my 2c here... I have done super-setting as you described in the past (before even thinking about TB). It worked well for me for a relatively short while but it really drained me out. My conditioning effort was at min level at the time and I remember struggling with recovery.

It could really depend on the person, though.. But I had to stop

[Aelian]

Consider a few things;

The body works as a unit. It's not just individual muscles in play when you perform a set of a heavy compound exercise, it's also the CNS, and various energy systems. If you go straight from 5 reps of one exercise to 5 reps of another, you're venturing into hypertrophy-bodybuilding territory. It has a different effect on the CNS, muscles, energy systems. It's in the same neighborhood as super-setting or drop sets. The fatigue will accumulate and lessen the intensity of the strength building aspect. Which is fine if you want to accentuate hypertrophy. The fatigue will also accumulate over the long haul and affect your overall training week at some point, which is a concern if you're also running a semi-serious conditioning protocol.

Trying to fit techniques from a pure strength and hypertrophy camp into a cross-training program is like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. We always have to consider the impact individual techniques have on the other domains we're trying to improve.

Another thing to consider, is Brian Alrush natty? If not, he'll have a very different recovery system at his disposal. Doesn't mean his material isn't legit, but it's something you need to take into consideration when employing his techniques. Things that work for him may not always translate to a natty lifter, even before adding age and conditioning to the equation.

All that being said, there's nothing wrong with setting aside a few blocks for some hypertrophy-biased strength work...that's the beauty of TB. Lower your conditioning load accordingly, up your calories, and have at it. Just don't expect it to be optimal for a multiple-domain training approach.

[antlas]

When I work out at lunchtime I superset squats and bench to save time. It is totally fine. I say give it a shot - you can always revert later.

[TangoZero]

Hey, guys. I just wanted to get your input on something. I have settled into a set/rep scheme using Op I/A that is really working for me. The first 3 workouts are 4 sets of 5 reps, the second 3 are 5 sets of 4 reps, the next 2 are 5 sets for 3 reps, and the last is 5 sets for 2 reps. This has been working really well for me, but the workouts are taking a pretty good while - about an hour and a half with my general warmup (about 10 minutes) and warmup sets.

So all of that to ask this. Would you ever consider doing 2 compound exercises back to back in a TB program and then taking the 2 minute rest (as in BP/Weighted chins/2 minute rest)? I know that this violates the Golden Rule of "thou shalt rest for 2 minutes between working sets" and is therefore TB blasphemy. So let me tell you why I am thinking about this. I keep an eye on Brian Alsruhe's youtube channel, and he has always recommended Giant Sets consisting of an antagonistic movement prior to the main compound movement and then a core exercise followed by 90 seconds rest. And just a few days ago, he released his Powerbuilding program template which utilizes Giant Sets. He advocates doing the antagonistic movement before the main compound movement and at the same intensity as the main compound movement. He says that this can be challenging at first, but that as you build work capacity it doesn't interfere with strength gains. As I was thinking about this, I began to wonder if perhaps I could do something like BP and then straight into weighted chins and then take the 2 minute rest before going back into BP. Now, I do realize that KB has spoken against this. KB says that if you want to superset the exercises that is fine, but that you still must keep 2 minutes rest after each exercise. I also realize that Brian's programs are setup very differently from TB. (Brian hits each compound movement once/week ala 5/3/1 as opposed to the frequency of TB.) All that I am asking is if any of you have ever tried this in order to keep the time more manageable and how it worked out for you.

Honestly, I'm one of those people that have a hard time changing anything as long as it's working, and Op I/A is working for me as written. So, I'm going to be hard-pressed to change much for the moment. I'd just like to know if any of you guys have ever done something similar and how it worked out for you. Thanks.

(I honestly feel like an idiot asking a question that KB has already answered, and you would think that after 2 years on TB that I would just "stick to the program," but I'll risk the blasphemous question and see what you guys say.)

mikhou

You'll probably be able to get away with this during the 70% weeks, but doing 2 sets back to back at 80%-95%RM is going to cause some issues down the road. Your CNS is doing the reps with you regardless of the muscle group being exercised. What cluster are you using? ....and have you already tried doing the super-setting with 2 mins in between?

[mikhou]

You'll probably be able to get away with this during the 70% weeks, but doing 2 sets back to back at 80%-95%RM is going to cause some issues down the road. Your CNS is doing the reps with you regardless of the muscle group being exercised. What cluster are you using? ....and have you already tried doing the super-setting with 2 mins in between?

t0, I haven't tried that yet because I fail to see how it would save time. I'll likely keep doing what I am doing and try to move faster between warm-up sets and be ready when my rest timer ends in order to maximize the time. Thanks.

[WallBilly]

I'll likely keep doing what I am doing and try to move faster between warm-up sets and be ready when my rest timer ends in order to maximize the time. Thanks.

That could be a big time saver. I find I don't need 2 minutes between warm-up sets. In fact, in the first few sets at low % 1RM, I get back at it as fast as I can change the plates.

Let's say, for example, that you are doing 3 movements, with 5 warm-up sets for each movement. Reducing the RI from 2 minutes to 1 for warm-up sets saves you 15 minutes total, which is not negligible.

[mikhou]

I'll likely keep doing what I am doing and try to move faster between warm-up sets and be ready when my rest timer ends in order to maximize the time. Thanks.

That could be a big time saver. I find I don't need 2 minutes between warm-up sets. In fact, in the first few sets at low % 1RM, I get back at it as fast as I can change the plates.

Let's say, for example, that you are doing 3 movements, with 5 warm-up sets for each movement. Reducing the RI from 2 minutes to 1 for warm-up sets saves you 15 minutes total, which is not negligible.

I typically just move straight from one warm-up set to the other without any rest period. I should have been more clear that I will try to move through my warm-up sets more quickly and be ready to go when my rest timer between working sets goes off.

[Maxrip13]

Mate go for it. I do stuff like this all the time. Especially if you are using a training max.

The reason you take that full 2 mins rest is to minimise excessive hypertrophy and allow your body to fully recover or close enough between the sets. I need that full 2 mins rest for squats, but not for benchpressing and weighted pullups at the lower percentage weeks.

The best way to minimise training time I have ever found is to do my Operator sessions in a circuit fashion with 2 mins rest between rounds.
I throw in some prehab work in that 2 min rest to save time also.

Squat
2 min rest
Benchpress
2 min rest
Weighted Pullups
2 Min rest
repeat x 3

This maximises rest and can get me out of the gym easily in under 30 mins with a focused warm up.
My warm up is barely 5 min when I do TB OP I/A.

Goblet Squat/Pistol Squat
Pushups
Pullups/Rows
Foam Roll problem area 5-10 Passes.

It's not perfect, but it gets the job done and saves me a lot of time. I should probably return to doing it as I am having trouble getting my training in at the moment.

[grouchyjarhead]

Hey, guys. I just wanted to get your input on something...

As I was thinking about this, I began to wonder if perhaps I could do something like BP and then straight into weighted chins and then take the 2 minute rest before going back into BP. Now, I do realize that KB has spoken against this. KB says that if you want to superset the exercises that is fine, but that you still must keep 2 minutes rest after each exercise.

The main problem you'll be running into is that they can actually effect each other's performance. For example, the main target in your bench press is your pectorals, which also acts as a synergist (an assisting muscle) in chin-ups. Work them both hard, and you might see your lifts begin to stagnate or even regress. That's why KB is so intent on giving yourself time to recover and keeping the setup minimal - this allows you to give each exercise a laser focus and allow nothing else to get in the way of the goal, which is Max Strength.

What's your typical warm-up, ramp-up sets, and cluster look like? 90 minutes seems like a long time if you're sticking with the TB protocols. I would frequently warm up, press, front squat, pull-ups, and be out the door headed to work in about 45 minutes.