Training Max *again*

[WallBilly]

So I posted a poll on the Reddit site trying to find out what fraction of TB'ers use a training max and which don't. It degenerated into a philosophical argument.

Now I have some results to discuss.

Background: Been doing TB strength religiously for 53 weeks after Starting Strength. Started off with a few blocks of Zulu (Squat/Press/Dead/Bench), then went to Operator (Squat/Press/Bench.) Based on the book's advice, I was always using Training Max. Threw in hardcore 8 week Basebuilding in April and May, then went to Black with Operator (Squat/Bench/Press). When I went back, I had started working out with a buddy, and he talked me into using true 1 rep max instead of a training max. We got through a 6 week block just fine, and the 1 RM numbers went up pretty well. We are now on our second block of Operator using a true 1RM.

In 53 weeks of TB, I had never missed a single rep..

Well, until today. It was 90% week, 3-4 sets of 3. Got 4 sets of overhead press, 3 sets of squats, and went into the Bench feeling a bit nervous. I could not finish the 3rd rep on the 1st set. Again, that's the first failed rep in a year of TB. And it was on the first fricking set.

Theory 1: "You weren't pushing it hard enough before, if you lifted for an entire fricking year without missing a rep. Suck it up, and get the 3 sets done Wednesday. Maybe you just had a bad day."

Theory 2: "K. Black was right. Don't be a moron. Stick to a training max."

It also crossed my mind that stopping the overhead presses at 3 sets might have left more in the tank for the bench.

Thoughts?

[Geidi]

I think you'd have to finish out your experiment completely (finish the block with a true 1rm) retest and check out your results. Maybe you would've made that rep with a longer RI, maybe you'll complete the reps as your strength trg progresses and you grow into the heavier weights. Hard to say.

In the big picture though, if you were doing fine and progressing well with a training max, then why change things for an unknown?

[Wieds13]

In my experience, it's better to use a true 1RM than a training max. I don't think that you should be failing lifts regularly, but I also think that only using 90% of your 1RM isn't heavy enough to force an adaptation. Personally, I think it's better to use a less aggressive template and/or retest less frequently rather than use a TM if you're struggling with the loads. If you're failing pretty early into a strength block (only within the first 3 weeks) then it could be that you're overestimating your true 1RM somehow. If you're failing later down the line, then you're not recovering adequately.

[WallBilly]

In my experience, it's better to use a true 1RM than a training max. I don't think that you should be failing lifts regularly, but I also think that only using 90% of your 1RM isn't heavy enough to force an adaptation. Personally, I think it's better to use a less aggressive template and/or retest less frequently rather than use a TM if you're struggling with the loads. If you're failing pretty early into a strength block (only within the first 3 weeks) then it could be that you're overestimating your true 1RM somehow. If you're failing later down the line, then you're not recovering adequately.

I forgot to mention something that you might be on to. I had a super day on the bench on the last test day, going up over 20 pounds on 1 RM after 1 operator block. But I had chosen a weight that I thought I would get 2 or 3 of, and I got 5 that day. If I scale that back to 4 (since the last rep was a struggle and maybe I pushed my bridge a bit too far with my legs), it drops my 1 RM by over 6 pounds, and maybe I hit my reps today.

I think it's a pretty good assumption that the formulas for calculating 1 RM from multiple reps to failure get less and less accurate as you get to 5 or more. I always try to shoot for 1-3.

I'm going to knock my 1 RM down to assume I only got 4 reps and try to finish the block. Then I'll decide to TM or not to TM . . .

I'm still interested in what other TB'ers think.

[HICsterDoofus]

In my experience, it's better to use a true 1RM than a training max. I don't think that you should be failing lifts regularly, but I also think that only using 90% of your 1RM isn't heavy enough to force an adaptation. Personally, I think it's better to use a less aggressive template and/or retest less frequently rather than use a TM if you're struggling with the loads. If you're failing pretty early into a strength block (only within the first 3 weeks) then it could be that you're overestimating your true 1RM somehow. If you're failing later down the line, then you're not recovering adequately.

I tend to think a true 1rm isn't necessary when you're using a high frequency template like Operator and possibly Zulu. You're hitting the lifts frequently, greasing the groove and "growing into" the weights through practice. Then bam, every 6 weeks you tack on another 5-10lbs and continue. I see lots of value using a training max with that kind of approach. At some point within a block or 3 you will be in a heavy enough zone to stimulate growth.

On the other hand, low frequency programs (like 531 or Fighter template) I think a true max is the way to go, to get more bang for your buck.

[Blackmetalbunny]

Personally, I think whether you use a 1RM or a training max would depend on your goal. If you want to get strong, what's the harm in a training max so long as you're always improving? If you want to get as strong as fast as possible, then maybe a 1RM?

The question I have to pose to Wieds13 is - if a TM is insufficient to force an adaptation, then how is everyone who is on a training max making progress?

I have a little bit of a sequential experience. In my first block, I forgot to apply a training max, and worked about 2 weeks in, and completely crashed and starting missing lifts, or struggling to grind it out. I later discovered my formula, applied a training max to my lifts. I've not missed a lift, but I'm also not able to tell how well it translated to strength gains.

That said, one confounding factor was that in the first 4 weeks, I had a serious project, and that affect my sleep and nutrition, so I'm inclined to believe that was a major contributing factor. Potentially if I was better recovered, I think the 1RM wouldn't be a problem for me. So recovery would be a significant factor to consider.

Now the flip side is that my bench press is rather low, so I've used a 1RM for that in my current block (though my squat and DL are TM), and have yet to miss a lift, so its not like training at a 1RM is going to kill your lifts.

[WallBilly]

Well, I took 5 pounds off my bench on work sets, and got through 3 sets of 3 this morning, barely.

I'll drop this for now, and maybe follow up in 3.5 weeks at the end of the block.

[Ten8]

Wallbilly, I wouldn't get concerned about losing a few reps here or there. That's just the nature of lifting, and so many life-things can affect your performance from session to session. The beauty of TB is that the hi-frequency approach tends to auto-correct that over time. You're not as reliant on having the perfect workout to propel your results for the next one.

[Barkadion]

Wallbilly, I wouldn't get concerned about losing a few reps here or there. That's just the nature of lifting, and so many life-things can affect your performance from session to session. The beauty of TB is that the hi-frequency approach tends to auto-correct that over time. You're not as reliant on having the perfect workout to propel your results for the next one.

Well said. Completely agree!

[K.B.]

Wallbilly, I wouldn't get concerned about losing a few reps here or there. That's just the nature of lifting, and so many life-things can affect your performance from session to session. The beauty of TB is that the hi-frequency approach tends to auto-correct that over time. You're not as reliant on having the perfect workout to propel your results for the next one.

Take this man's advice @Wallbilly. Bang on.

Using a training max also tends to nip this in the bud.