Training Max: Seeing a Pattern

[Fedaykin]

I don't have anything against using a true max per se. But I look at it like this:

Training Max:
Pros - makes workouts manageable, no missed reps or sets, makes weights + cardio infinitely more manageable, leads to progress in true 1rms over time.

Cons - feel like a fancy-boy in the gym with less on the bar. Hurts the ego. Maybe less effective with a low frequency strength program where the trainee's #1 priority is strength enhancement. Increased overall weekly stress on the body & systems.

True Max:
Pros - seeing the numbers on paper make me feel good. Bigger wheels on the bar. Me feel more good.
Cons - leads to much quicker plateaus, missed reps. Might be difficult for older athletes to use in conjunction with a moderate-intense conditioning program.

Does it have it's place. Yes, I think so. Ironically, I think using a true max with a program like 5/3/1 is the better route to take. 5/3/1 is what I consider a low frequency program...the major lifts are hit once a week for a handful of sets. If you stayed within the training max zone, you simply wouldn't be lifting frequently enough to justify the lighter weight. The workload and stimulus is significantly diminished.

This makes a great deal of sense. Conditioning load aside, Jim Wendler is first and foremost a strength and power athlete and he popularized the concept. If it's good enough for a competitive PL'er, then it's even better for a multi-skilled athlete.

Now here's a question for you Doc, I agree wholeheartedly with the frequency thing. Where would you categorize Fighter and Zulu on the spectrum? Would these templates benefit more using a true max?

[Fedaykin]

@Doc, I should add that Wendler has dealt with the low frequency/inadequate volume to the basic program in the follow-up book Beyond 531.

[J-Madd]

DocOctagon -- Yours is a superb summary of the t-max issue, and I agree with everything you say here, especially this:

Maybe less effective with a low frequency strength program where the trainee's #1 priority is strength enhancement.

He's a great case in point: Westside Barbell is a relatively low frequency program, and far from using training maxes you are actually maxing out every week (though constantly varying the lifts) mostly on lifts like rack pulls or board presses that overload what you could handle in a full ROM. It works because most guys doing WSB focus on moving around as little as possible between lifting sessions, and they only lift with any kind of serious weight x2/week (everything else is speed work).

[TBPenguin]

May I ask you why you go for Zulu this fall? I am just genuinely curious in your thinking as experienced lifter..

I'm not absolutely sure I'm going with Zulu, but that's where I'm leaning now. Here's my rationale:

(a) For the next block, strength and muscle are my first priority, and in particular I want to give the DL some love I haven't for a long time. On either template I will have the same cluster: SQ/BP/WPU/DL. On Operator I would WPUx2/week and DLx1. With Zulu I would WPUx2/week and DLx2/week. Thus, the WPU comes out the same either way, and, though the SQ and BP take a hit (going form x3/week to x2/week), my priority lift comes out the winner with Zulu.

(b) I've only done one complete block of Zulu. My reasons for getting away from were pretty stupid -- I was basically trying to do everything at once. I'd like to give Zulu more honest try under the conditions for which it was originally designed. Right now I'm in the mood to be a bit more of an old-fashioned gym rat.

The decision will come down to whether I have the guts to try DLing x2/week again. As you know, that has not gone well for me in the past, but at those times I was pushing both the volume and intensity much harder than what I have in mind now. If I decide to go with DLx1/week, sticking with Operator is a no-brainer.

My observation, having done Zulu I/A with DLs. To do SQ and DL back to back, 2x a week, did not work for me. Now I had done SQ and DL back to back 2x a week many many years ago, so maybe I've turned wussy. And you are younger than me. But here is what did work in Zulu, and that was to have one of those DL days use an easier form of DL. Then the second day was right before the weekend. That worked fine. What I think might be worth trying, at least for me, is to do DLs 1x a week in Zulu on the same day as SQ. So day 1/3 would be WPU and a press, day 2 would be SQs, but let this day be higher volume. Or maybe do swings. Day 4 do the minimum sets for SQ and then do DLs.

And so this isn't too far off thread topic, I wonder if it would make sense to use a lower % TM for DL, especially if done 2x a week or more. It seems like a lot of DL programs use lower actual percentages anyway. We don't have to have all lifts done with the same TM.

[BlackPyjamas]

My observation, having done Zulu I/A with DLs. To do SQ and DL back to back, 2x a week, did not work for me. Now I had done SQ and DL back to back 2x a week many many years ago, so maybe I've turned wussy. And you are younger than me. But here is what did work in Zulu, and that was to have one of those DL days use an easier form of DL. Then the second day was right before the weekend. That worked fine. What I think might be worth trying, at least for me, is to do DLs 1x a week in Zulu on the same day as SQ. So day 1/3 would be WPU and a press, day 2 would be SQs, but let this day be higher volume. Or maybe do swings. Day 4 do the minimum sets for SQ and then do DLs.

And so this isn't too far off thread topic, I wonder if it would make sense to use a lower % TM for DL, especially if done 2x a week or more. It seems like a lot of DL programs use lower actual percentages anyway. We don't have to have all lifts done with the same TM.

Have you read the 3rd edition? You know you can set-up zulu with just one DL day right?

Day 1 SQ/BP
Day 2 DL
Day 4 SQ/BP
Day 5 Nada

I ran it like this for a few blocks:

D1 SQ/BP
D2 Cardio
D3 DL
D4 Cardio/Off
D5 SQ/BP
D6 Cardio/Off
D7 Cardio/Off

You could even tinker with the above and include two separate DL days if you're using a minimalist cluster.

[DocOctagon]

Now here's a question for you Doc, I agree wholeheartedly with the frequency thing. Where would you categorize Fighter and Zulu on the spectrum? Would these templates benefit more using a true max?

In most cases I would classify Zulu as high frequency. You may not be hitting the exact same lifts 4 x week but if you're using the standard SQ/DL/BP/OHP cluster there's enough overlap to make it count. With Fighter I'm leaning toward low, because there's a significant amount of time in between sessions, which factors into the concept of frequency.

In reality they can probably go either way, depending on how you set them up. Higher range of sets (3 vs 5), cluster size, the objective of your training block, an intent to prioritize strength while minimizing conditioning & vice versa.

[Adski]

Just my on 2c with the training max, since using it along with TB, I've noticed a lot less niggling pains, which in the past for myself has come mostly from too high a volume and intensity (coupled with a lack of patience)with training, fighting through overall fatigue etc.

This being said.... On my first run, I used my true maxes with fighter, I was running a deadlift, WPU and Weighted dip cluster, and by week 3 I tweaked my back, which is something I'd never done before, and the next 2 and a bit weeks I couldn't walk properly without getting spasms.

After recovering from that minor setback, I've been using a T max (I only started deadlifting again after I finished a base building block recently and am now on operator) , and haven't looked back. I find it keeps me from pushing too hard, and keeps the overall feeling of fatigue during the day away, and I'm seeing gradual improvements across the board.

So in short, for me, T max- pros- keeps you progressing, feeling good overall, less risk of niggling pains/injuries, longevity.

Cons- none, in my opinion. I think if more people trained conservatively (and patiently) the majority of the time and pushed the limits every once in a great while, it will allow both progress and longevity.

[WallBilly]

So in short, for me, T max- pros- keeps you progressing, feeling good overall, less risk of niggling pains/injuries, longevity.

Cons- none, in my opinion. I think if more people trained conservatively (and patiently) the majority of the time and pushed the limits every once in a great while, it will allow both progress and longevity.

Note to self: heed Adski's advice.

I had the same philosophy. I'm in this for the long haul. But still, as a competitive person, the urge to do more, and more quickly, has to be fought against constantly. I thought to myself "what could it hurt to throw in one block of Op with true 1RM? Maybe I'll get to my elusive bench goal a bit more quickly."

Well, it could hurt a lot, as you said. I did not injure myself, but I was awfully sore after week 6. This morning under the bar, I could still feel last week.

[Barkadion]

Just my on 2c with the training max, since using it along with TB, I've noticed a lot less niggling pains, which in the past for myself has come mostly from too high a volume and intensity (coupled with a lack of patience)with training, fighting through overall fatigue etc.

This being said.... On my first run, I used my true maxes with fighter, I was running a deadlift, WPU and Weighted dip cluster, and by week 3 I tweaked my back, which is something I'd never done before, and the next 2 and a bit weeks I couldn't walk properly without getting spasms.

After recovering from that minor setback, I've been using a T max (I only started deadlifting again after I finished a base building block recently and am now on operator) , and haven't looked back. I find it keeps me from pushing too hard, and keeps the overall feeling of fatigue during the day away, and I'm seeing gradual improvements across the board.

So in short, for me, T max- pros- keeps you progressing, feeling good overall, less risk of niggling pains/injuries, longevity.

Cons- none, in my opinion. I think if more people trained conservatively (and patiently) the majority of the time and pushed the limits every once in a great while, it will allow both progress and longevity.

That is a great comment. Thank you.

I have a question, though. It looks that one should re-test 1RM after every block in order to stay within TM. Keep going with forced progression can get you to true 1RM numbers without realizing that. Am I wrong?

[Adski]

@ barkadion, opinions/theories may differ, but personally I would keep the same numbers for at least 2 blocks before testing which I've seen mentioned on the Reddit page and in TB 3rd edition off of memory (at least I think that's where I read it).
I try to go by Ross Enamaits view that he talked about in one of his videos that, big gains aren't a few weeks or months away, that, "a few weeks or months are a blink of an eye." For me, when approaching TB, I take that as, be conservative and make steady progress over a long period of time, pushing the boundaries with testing once every 2-3 months or longer. I hope that makes sense.