Help me think about HIC sprint workouts

[Josh]

I may be overthinking this, but:

What is the meaning of diminishing speed across an interval workout? How does it affect my programming progression on the interval workout?
Last night I ran my first official 600 reset.
I ran 4 intervals: 2:36,2:32,2:40,2:50 The last interval felt like I was jogging even though I was pushing as hard as possible, probably due to leg fatigue? Do I progress these by adding intervals, even if they get progressively slower? If I go from running a 7:30 pace for the first couple, to let's say a 9:00 pace, is that 9:00 paced interval still affecting the adaptation I'm targeting? - cardiac hypertrophy I think, according to the book.

What about shorter sprint/rest intervals like oxygen debt? I assume there would be a rapid fall-off in time for the intervals, due to accumulated fatigue.

I know I can just keep adding intervals and tough it out, but I'm trying to keep the minimum effective dose in mind, and mindfulness of the training goal

Thanks in advance

[spemma]

i got a lot of heat and downvotes over on reddit for a similar topic.....

....but i'll try again anyway!

the below a good read from Clyde Hart, a long time sprint coach at Baylor, coach of olympic gold medalist in the 400m Michael Johnson. given the rest times in the 600m resets, it falls into more of the speed endurance category as far as sprint workouts go.

regarding your 600m resets, perhaps you need to lengthen your rest time. you should be fully rested for each rep, consistent with what is said in the below for speed endurance. as you get more fit, you may be able to decrease the rest time.

regarding something like oxygen debt, perhaps it would be better to pace a little better on the reps given the short rest times consistent with tempo endurance.

600m resets appear to focus on the quality of each rep, therefore more rest time is needed. oxygen debt....i don't know, i would say given the short rest focuses on the quantity of the reps, but needs you to scale back very slightly on the pacing in order to complete.

or just go HAM on each as some suggest....but i think that isn't a very thoughtful approach.

interested in others opinions.

https://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/li ... _Hart3.pdf

[KShea]

Honestly it depends how you view it.

When I see the words "max effort" I interpret it as going as hard as I can (and still actually finish the interval). I expect diminishing returns, so I know my max effort on set 1 is different than my max effort on any subsequent sets.

Others see "max effort" slightly different... Where it's not as hard as you can on every rep, but it's as hard as you can on every rep to keep a consistent pace throughout the workout.

I know the question was about energy systems, but honestly you're going to be working similar systems either way, considering you give yourself a good rest interval between reps. You're allowing your body to recover the best it can in a 3-5 min (or a touch longer) period and then going again. Even if there is a lean one way or the other, I'm not sure how large of a gap that would be in energy systems usage.

[spemma]

i definitely agree with you.

i do believe that people tend to completely agree with and understand sub maximal as it relates to strength training, but then throw that concept out the window when it comes to running and conditioning. and perhaps they are different and i just understand strength better than conditioning. but it still comes down to the body's ability to recover imo...

[Barkadion]

Honestly it depends how you view it.

When I see the words "max effort" I interpret it as going as hard as I can (and still actually finish the interval). I expect diminishing returns, so I know my max effort on set 1 is different than my max effort on any subsequent sets.

Others see "max effort" slightly different... Where it's not as hard as you can on every rep, but it's as hard as you can on every rep to keep a consistent pace throughout the workout.

I know the question was about energy systems, but honestly you're going to be working similar systems either way, considering you give yourself a good rest interval between reps. You're allowing your body to recover the best it can in a 3-5 min (or a touch longer) period and then going again. Even if there is a lean one way or the other, I'm not sure how large of a gap that would be in energy systems usage.

This is my understanding as well.. Nicely said.

[KShea]

i definitely agree with you.

i do believe that people tend to completely agree with and understand sub maximal as it relates to strength training, but then throw that concept out the window when it comes to running and conditioning. and perhaps they are different and i just understand strength better than conditioning. but it still comes down to the body's ability to recover imo...

Right.

An AMRAP set isn't until failure. You have to be able to finish the set and you want to leave a rep or two in the tank. I look at max effort running the same way. I want to go as hard as I can and STILL finish the set as prescribed. If I get halfway through and I want to fall on my face and I don't want to run any more and give up, that's a big time mistake.

But whenever I did VDIP from GZCL or MRS sets I would use a weight and go for enough reps that I had one left in the case... And I knew the next set I wouldn't be able to do the same amount of reps... So I might do a set of 8,7,6,3. But I really had 9,8,7,4 in me.

But again, I expect diminishing returns.

[spemma]

interesting comparison and has me thinking. thanks for the detail.

[Josh]

600m resets appear to focus on the quality of each rep, therefore more rest time is needed. oxygen debt....i don't know, i would say given the short rest focuses on the quantity of the reps, but needs you to scale back very slightly on the pacing in order to complete.

https://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/li ... _Hart3.pdf

Super interesting read, Thanks!

The article mentions a rest time closer to 10 minutes! After 4 minutes I had control of my breathing, but my pulse was still elevated.

Perhaps I should titrate my rests up until all intervals are the same pace, and add an interval each week I do it?
also
Should my heart rate be in a completely rested state before my next interval? Or is my ability to repeat my previous 600 a marker for complete recovery?

[SPACE_CORPS_NOW]

I just did my first 600 Resets today and I have the same questions. I don't think I could run 600m at a true max effort aka starting at my 100m sprint pace. However, I did try to finish each 600 with nothing left in the tank. I thought it was odd that all of my 600s were within 10 seconds of the first. I was expecting gradually decreasing times, but that wasn't the case either since my 6th 600 was a few seconds faster than 4th and 5th. I did 5 minute rest intervals and at the end of each rest period I felt fantastic. I didn't have a heart monitor so not sure how my HR was looking, no heavy breathing after minute 2 or 3 of rest, though.

Should I have had decreasing times or is it expected for them to be steady?
Should I be all out sprinting from the get go and crawl through the finish on each 600?
Was my rest interval too long?

I read that 400m training plan and didn't see anything about 600 resets. Did I miss that section? It sounds like it would be pretty effective if you're a sprinter training for the 400m, though.

[spemma]

the below represents my opinion and how i've trained this workout, so take that as you will. i know there are definitely people who disagree with me, but i think the reasoning laid out in the sprinting guide is thoughtful in approach and design.

with that said, i'm reminded by countless people that TB isn't a program to churn out 400m sprinters, etc. i agree. i don't think that precludes us from leveraging track and field training programs and rationale.

i also believe you can push really hard on individual reps, whether it be strength or conditioning, but that requires longer rest times. or you can scale back effort on reps but increase intensity via reduced rest times. or you can push very hard on each rep and double down with reduced rest times, but if you do that frequently, you will burn out.

ultimately, i would defer to whatever K.B. or a green-namer tells you.

Perhaps I should titrate my rests up until all intervals are the same pace, and add an interval each week I do it? when i did these, i tried to up my rest intervals so that my last rep wasn't much more that 10 seconds worse than my first rep. as my fitness improved, i decreased rest times. i never got to adding reps.
also

Should my heart rate be in a completely rested state before my next interval? Or is my ability to repeat my previous 600 a marker for complete recovery? i adhered to the latter.

Should I have had decreasing times or is it expected for them to be steady? i personally think they should be somewhat steady. in other words, if your last rep is 30+ seconds worse than your first, i think you're blowing your wad in rep 1 and reducing the effectiveness of the workout. but again that's my opinion, albeit consistent with the track guide.

Should I be all out sprinting from the get go and crawl through the finish on each 600? J-Madd addressed this on reddit:"You are finding 600 min resets so difficult, because it is a really freaking difficult drill. Running 600m as fast as you can doesn't necessarily mean you will redline the engine for the entire distance. Someone competing in the 400m doesn't run a PR in the first 50 meters. If you ran your best 50m out of the gate, you wouldn't finish the 600m. You might have to "game" it a bit. Start at a slower pace, and build throughout the "sprint."

Was my rest interval too long? if your reps are bang on the same time every rep....i suppose you are resting too long...or not trying hard enough on the reps

I read that 400m training plan and didn't see anything about 600 resets. Did I miss that section? It sounds like it would be pretty effective if you're a sprinter training for the 400m, though.they don't take about 600m resets specifically. i'm just doing some deductive reasoning here. TB says to give max effort but also big rest times to be fully recovered. the explanation of the workout appears most closely aligned with speed endurance as described in the guide. whereby a harder effort is given, which is then compensated with longer rest times to allow for another hard effort rep.