Former SF (18 series)/current Fed LEO - ask me almost anything

[Sorntel]

This might be a nothing question because it sounds like you had a very high level of endurance coming into SF (ultras, climbing, rucking), which (from what I understand) along with strength-endurance are the two areas you want to be very good at for it.

If you had to go back and do it again, would you change anything about your pre-selection physical training?

[Tirofijo]

This is some real good stuff, thanks for doing this!

You mentioned Don't Quit, do you have any mental tricks, self talk, visualization, that you've used throughout the years when you've felt on the verge of shutting down? Whether in training or on the job, any go-to techniques?

I don't know. Whole books have been written on that, right?

I will say that physical preparation is key. The better shape you are in, the 'less hard' Selection is, which means you are less likely to quit.

But no matter how great of a shape you are in, you are going to suffer. I think the fact that I had 'suffered' in some endurance sports before really helped. Was the worst day in SFAS worse than that Ironman? Nah. Climbing to 18000 ft was more of a sufferfest than a ruck run. Trying to stay in the breakaway with a bunch of CAT 3 cyclist (when you are barely a Cat 4) is more painful that log PT.

So I had pushed my self to the breaking point before. Maybe that helped. SFAS probably shouldn't be the first time you've gone to the breaking point. That would be my advice.

[Tirofijo]

Did more people quit on selection, or were more people cut? What were the top 2 or 3 reasons people quit or were cut?

Cheers

It's a mix between three things: quitting, not passing the aforementioned land nav course, and making it to the end but not being selected.

A lot quit in the first few days. I figure they didn't really want to be there. Some from the regular army did zero preparation. So those guys quit at a high rate. I'm not sure what they were thinking.

The land nav caused a lot of people to quit. Some couldn't hack being out alone at night with no one to motivate them. But many tried hard, didn't quit and still couldn't pass. I think land nav is almost like an IQ test. If you can't take a MGRS coordinate and read a map and navigate with a compass, it's probably a good indication that you aren't smart enough for SF. It's not that hard. But again, physical fitness is key. The faster you can move with a ruck, the more likely you are to find all your points, because invariably you'll get turned around at one point or another and will need to make up some time by moving quickly.

Then there were the guys that passed land nav and didn't quit yet weren't selected. Those are called 24-day Non-Selects. (Selection was 24 days then. It might be 21 now). Maybe they barely passed the PT test, and they were slow on all the timed run and ruck marches, and the cadre didn't like what they saw when watching them during the team events. I was never privy to the machinations of the Selection cadre, but I assume they go over everyone's performance and decide on whether they pass or fail.

I'd say its a good mix between those three things. But that's just my observation from a single time at SFAS.

[Tirofijo]

This might be a nothing question because it sounds like you had a very high level of endurance coming into SF (ultras, climbing, rucking), which (from what I understand) along with strength-endurance are the two areas you want to be very good at for it.

If you had to go back and do it again, would you change anything about your pre-selection physical training?

It's a good question. I feel like, by chance, my previous preparation made me just about perfect for SFAS. I was toward the front of all the ruck runs in SFAS and SOPC. I was 5'11 and around 160 lbs.

But I wish I had more muscle when I was in Phase 2, which was our Small Unit Tactics phase and was similar to a mini-Ranger school, except with longer movements and heavier rucks. (But we had more food than you get in Ranger School.) (The Q course has changed in the last ten years, so the names I use may not match up with the current names.)

We started out with 14 on our team, and by the end of the six weeks we were down to 8 due to guys being pulled for not performing. But we still had to carry the same equipment and ammo as if we had 14 people. My ruck weighed 130 lbs. That's when being a wiry 160lbs wasn't ideal. Being 200lbs with a 400lb deadlift - but still being able to run - would have been better.

I think TB would get you there. Operator + Green would have been perfect.

[NathanC77]

1. Don’t quit. I don’t mean to be flippant. I was older and had a real career that I quit in order to enlist. I was highly motivated. Had I quit, I’d have to find another NG company (and most non-SF NG companies are jacked up) and I’d probably never get another shot (quitting would likely get me a NTR on my file - Never To Return). When it starts to suck, guys will find a reason to quit. “Well, my wife didn’t want me to go SF anyway, so I’m going to quit.” Or, “I think I hurt my knee, I’m going to get a med drop and come back or else I might injure my knee permanently.” Injuries happen, but med drops are also an easy way of quitting and saving some face. I could go on and on, and I don’t have the answers on why some quit.

Thanks for the Q&A, this has been really informative. How old is "older" and how do you think that affected your experience versus that of the younger guys? Also, how old were the oldest guys you went through this with?

[NFARCH]

Did more people quit on selection, or were more people cut? What were the top 2 or 3 reasons people quit or were cut?

Cheers

Then there were the guys that passed land nav and didn't quit yet weren't selected. Those are called 24-day Non-Selects. (Selection was 24 days then. It might be 21 now). Maybe they barely passed the PT test, and they were slow on all the timed run and ruck marches, and the cadre didn't like what they saw when watching them during the team events. I was never privy to the machinations of the Selection cadre, but I assume they go over everyone's performance and decide on whether they pass or fail.

I'd say its a good mix between those three things. But that's just my observation from a single time at SFAS.

That's gotta hurt. Were they ever given some avenue back or was it the end of the line as far as SF?

[Rick Deckard]

So it sounds like you're doing far less E type training after the switch to LE. How has that impacted your overall health, energy levels, strength-- what are the positives and negatives going from high volume E to (I'm assuming) much less?

[K.B.]

Great to have you on board Tirofijo - lots of invaluable advice in this thread already.

[Tirofijo]

1. Don’t quit. I don’t mean to be flippant. I was older and had a real career that I quit in order to enlist. I was highly motivated. Had I quit, I’d have to find another NG company (and most non-SF NG companies are jacked up) and I’d probably never get another shot (quitting would likely get me a NTR on my file - Never To Return). When it starts to suck, guys will find a reason to quit. “Well, my wife didn’t want me to go SF anyway, so I’m going to quit.” Or, “I think I hurt my knee, I’m going to get a med drop and come back or else I might injure my knee permanently.” Injuries happen, but med drops are also an easy way of quitting and saving some face. I could go on and on, and I don’t have the answers on why some quit.

Thanks for the Q&A, this has been really informative. How old is "older" and how do you think that affected your experience versus that of the younger guys? Also, how old were the oldest guys you went through this with?

I was 31 in SFAS. There were definitely some guys older, but I was on the older end. I think I remember a guy close to 40 in my class. The 18x program was in full swing, so that brought the average age down from previous years when you had to be an E-4 to go to Selection.

[Tirofijo]

Did more people quit on selection, or were more people cut? What were the top 2 or 3 reasons people quit or were cut?

Cheers

Then there were the guys that passed land nav and didn't quit yet weren't selected. Those are called 24-day Non-Selects. (Selection was 24 days then. It might be 21 now). Maybe they barely passed the PT test, and they were slow on all the timed run and ruck marches, and the cadre didn't like what they saw when watching them during the team events. I was never privy to the machinations of the Selection cadre, but I assume they go over everyone's performance and decide on whether they pass or fail.

I'd say its a good mix between those three things. But that's just my observation from a single time at SFAS.

That's gotta hurt. Were they ever given some avenue back or was it the end of the line as far as SF?

No, you could go to Selection again, assuming you couldn't didn't get NTR'ed. (See my previous post about NTR.)

In the NG, though, your NG company might not want to spend one of its limited SFAS spots on someone that had already gotten a shot and didn't make it. If you were in the regular Army, you'd go back to your unit and have to do some time there before getting another spot.

Even the NTR could be waived, in theory, but I don't know how that works. I suspect you could go back to your unit, keep your head down and perform well, do a deployment, have great PT scores, get a recommendation from your Commander, etc, but I'm just speculating.

Officers only got one shot at it, based on how their year-group system works. There was a very limited window when they could go to Selection, basically when they are a new Captain. I don't know how that works either.