Question about the Grunt vs SWAT cluster for Operator

[danteh]

I was wondering why it recommends OHP and front squats for people looking to go SOF and bench and back squats for people looking to go LE? Wouldn't shoulder strength be more beneficial than chest strength regardless of SOF or LE?

[nickgoldma]

I think he wanted to give the reader and the person using the program two different options. I am sure either way would be beneficial and you could mix it up such as 12 Weeks of SWAT cluster and 12 Weeks of Grunt cluster. I think the Grunt cluster is a tiny less strenuous in the idea that one may be spending a lot of time rucking, running, etc in preparation for a military contract. I never served and I could be wrong but that is just my assumption.

[Tym87]

I think the idea was that you are not taxing yourself as much with Grunt rather than SWAT only because you would be lifting less weight. Most people front squat and overhead press less weight than they can back squat or bench press. With Grunt it is assumed that you are probably doing a lot more E work, but really TB is so easy to customize you can do with it what you want.

[DocOctagon]

Lifting heavy while conditioning hard is difficult. Most people FS & OHP significantly more weight than they BS & BP. Having less overall load on the system from week to week makes a huge difference in the amount of conditioning you can handle and recover from. If you're choosing Green + Grunt, strength isn't as high on your priority list as endurance is, so it stands to reason you allot less of your body's resources to it.

[DocOctagon]

Wouldn't shoulder strength be more beneficial than chest strength regardless of SOF or LE?

The OHP and the BP both train mostly the same muscles. Where they differ is in what areas they stress. So the BP might put more emphasis on your pecs and less on your rear delts, and vice versa for OHP. For a general athlete those differences aren't great enough to matter. You need to stop thinking in terms of bodyparts when it comes to increasing general levels of strength. If not, why stop at OHP and BP? Why not train the tris and bis too? How about the calves?

[Barkadion]

Wouldn't shoulder strength be more beneficial than chest strength regardless of SOF or LE?

The OHP and the BP both train mostly the same muscles. Where they differ is in what areas they stress. So the BP might put more emphasis on your pecs and less on your rear delts, and vice versa for OHP. For a general athlete those differences aren't great enough to matter. You need to stop thinking in terms of bodyparts when it comes to increasing general levels of strength. If not, why stop at OHP and BP? Why not train the tris and bis too? How about the calves?

And bench doesn't really hit pecs anyway

[Tym87]

Wouldn't shoulder strength be more beneficial than chest strength regardless of SOF or LE?

The OHP and the BP both train mostly the same muscles. Where they differ is in what areas they stress. So the BP might put more emphasis on your pecs and less on your rear delts, and vice versa for OHP. For a general athlete those differences aren't great enough to matter. You need to stop thinking in terms of bodyparts when it comes to increasing general levels of strength. If not, why stop at OHP and BP? Why not train the tris and bis too? How about the calves?

Next block:
Calve Raises
Shrugs
Weighted Splits

[danteh]

I am not thinking in terms of body parts and am surprised how fast this whole topic turned into my wanting to do a bro split. All I was wondering was why the SWAT and Grunt Clusters focus on completely separate MAJOR muscle groups. One cluster is hitting your chest and hams and ignoring shoulders and quads. Other is hitting shoulders and quads and ignoring chest and hams. I don't care that they are not being hit. I'd like to know the thought process behind having those exercises designated to those clusters. Why would LE officers benefit more from focusing their work on their chest and hams rather than their shoulders and quads?

[Green2Blue]

I am not thinking in terms of body parts and am surprised how fast this whole topic turned into my wanting to do a bro split. All I was wondering was why the SWAT and Grunt Clusters focus on completely separate MAJOR muscle groups. One cluster is hitting your chest and hams and ignoring shoulders and quads. Other is hitting shoulders and quads and ignoring chest and hams. I don't care that they are not being hit. I'd like to know the thought process behind having those exercises designated to those clusters. Why would LE officers benefit more from focusing their work on their chest and hams rather than their shoulders and quads?

1. They're joking about the split

2. You say you aren't thinking in terms of body parts, but you quite literally are. "One cluster is hitting your chest and hams and ignoring shoulders and quads. Other is hitting shoulders and quads and ignoring chest and hams." That's just not the case. Bench hits pecs and delts, OHP hits pecs and delts, back squat hits quads and hams, front squat hits quads and hams. One exercise might emphasize one over the other, but they both muscle groups get worked.

2.5. Here's an example.

Rich Froning, top crossfitter: http://theathleticbuild.com/wp-content/ ... 639560.jpg . Crossfit has a lot of overhead work and front squat type movements, but almost no bench or back squat. But clearly Rich isn't lacking in pecs or hams.

Dan Greene, top powerlifter: https://standontheshouldersofgiants.fil ... 11/dan.jpg. Powerlifting uses bench and back squat, not OHP and front squat. But obviously not lacking in quads or delts.

Now obviously the two men cross over and do the other movements, but great emphasis is placed on their sport specific movements. And yet there clearly aren't lacking anywhere.

3. To answer your original question, which doc and the book already answered, it's about load. You can bench and back squat more than you can OHP and front squat respectively. More load means more stress on the body. More stress on the body means less recoverable capacity for training other qualities, like endurance. "Grunts" need more endurance than "SWATs". I've been in both fields, this is fact. So "Grunts" need more energy left over after their strength training to work on that endurance.

If you go back to crossfit vs powerlifting the same principle applies. Crossfitters need more endurance than powerlifters.

So to put it simply, OHP and front squat place less stress on the body than bench and back squat, and therefore leave more energy for endurance training. The difference is minor, but that's the reason.

[close_fox]

I am not thinking in terms of body parts and am surprised how fast this whole topic turned into my wanting to do a bro split. All I was wondering was why the SWAT and Grunt Clusters focus on completely separate MAJOR muscle groups. One cluster is hitting your chest and hams and ignoring shoulders and quads. Other is hitting shoulders and quads and ignoring chest and hams. I don't care that they are not being hit. I'd like to know the thought process behind having those exercises designated to those clusters. Why would LE officers benefit more from focusing their work on their chest and hams rather than their shoulders and quads?

I think the salty replies were just attempts at humor, maybe lost in translation.

Here's my understanding:

First, your question is addressed in the TB1 discussion of Operator template clusters. I don't say that to be a jerk; I am pointing it out to make sure you get it from the source.

Here is my understanding:

The Grunt and SWAT clusters are not designed to prioritize different muscle groups. They are designed to build strength while prioritizing different levels of exertion based on operational realities.

Infantry, SOF, etc. are typically "live" extensive E as part of their jobs. They therefore have to train extensive E also. Their bodies can't afford the "big lifts" like squat and bench 3x/week on top of carrying a heavy E load. It would be great if grunts could run the big lifts on top of their E marathons, but that just isn't reality for most people. Grunt cluster allows them to squat and press in a way that builds strength without hurting their E abilities. Front squat and overhead press use lighter loads, which put less stress on their bodies, which allows them to enjoy many fun hours of rucking, swimming, LSS running, etc.

By contrast, most LEOs do not live (or need to train) extensive E. They can therefore afford the physical cost of big lifts like squat and bench. SWAT cluster allows them to build strength in the most efficient way possible - lifting heavy weight via the big lifts.

Clusters aren't designed to hit every plane of movement (or body part). Areas not addressed by cluster lifts (e.g., vertical press for SWAT users, horizontal press for Grunt users) can and should be addressed during conditioning sessions.

Finally, TB takes the fresh approach of stripping strength down to it's raw, simple elements. It releases us from feeling a need to do everything, all the time. If someone works up to a bodyweight overhead press without training bench at all, I bet you a dollar their bench will be close to 1.5xBW. And vice versa. Same with FSQ vs SQ. Choose one, or alternate for blocks, based on your needs and goals. And get balance from your conditioning session exercises.